Camel through eye of a needle; Rich man to Heaven

Arts & Sciences Religion & Spirituality
1

I’m not a Christian. Not hardly. Never have been, never will be. But I’ve been reading the bible recently (I don’t believe the magic stuff, but I acknowlege it’s a great book full of interesting stories) and was puzzled by Matthew 19, in which Jesus is approached by a rich man who asks him “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” and then you get this:

[quote] 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. [/quote]
biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV

So here’s my question. That’s not just the Bible speaking. That’s supposedly Jesus – the ultimate authority – speaking. Seems to me he made it pretty clear if one wants to go to heaven, not only must one obey all of the 10 Commandments, but one must not acquire wealth. If you have great wealth you must get rid of it, distribute it to the poor. And yet, as we all know, there are preachers like this:

[quote]1. Benny Hinn—Benny Hinn is known around the world for his large healing crusades. His television show airs in more than 200 countries . . . His ministry collects more than $200 million a year, and he’s admitted to his salary being over half a million. Hinn owns a private jet, lives in a $10 million house near the Pacific Ocean, stays in hotel rooms that cost thousands each night, and owns luxury vehicles. . .

  1. Joyce Meyer—Since 1999, Joyce Meyer’s ministry has spent at least $4 million on 5 homes for Meyer and her children. Meyer’s house is a 10,000 square foot home with an 8-car garage, a large fountain, a gazebo, a private putting green, a pool, and pool house with a new $10,000 bathroom. Her salary was reported at $900,000 back in 2003, and she also enjoys use of a private jet and luxury cars. . . .

  2. Kenneth Copeland . . . lives in a mansion that some have said is “the size of a hotel.” He also has acquired a $20 million Cessna Citation private jet for flying around the country to spread the word. And of course, he owns an airport for landing said airplane.

  3. Creflo Dollar . . . His church made $69 million back in 2006, and the church also provided him with a Rolls Royce. In Dollar’s words “Just because it (my life) is excessive doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong.”

  4. Eddie Long . . . has earned millions in salary from his ministry, owns a million dollar home on a 20-acre lot, has use of a $350,000 Bentley, and pulls in a host of other benefits too. . .

  5. Randy and Paula White . . . own million dollar homes across the country (including in Trump Tower). . . .[/quote]
    nakedlaw.avvo.com/2010/06/6-outr … stigation/

So my questions are:

  1. How do those millionaire preachers justify their conduct and lifestyles when it seems to be in obvious and direct conflict with what Jesus said? If you want to be a preacher fine. If you want to be a mega-millionaire fine. But how can one possibly claim to follow the bible while accumulating that level of loot?

  2. How can the flock of sheep possibly be so gullible as to believe such persons are morally or spiritually superior or worthy of listening to for their spiritual advice? Financial advice, sure, but spiritual advice? Shouldn’t it be instantly abundantly clear to all that those people are frauds?

2
  1. They can’t.
  2. I’m a big believer in common sense, but sense seldom seems to be universal.
3

I think Jesus just wanted this guy to give him some money. Some of the things he says may not be totally applicable in every case, but there is truth to it. What is the saying, “money is the root all evil.” (I don’t know if that’s from the Bible or not.) “I’m all right Jack. Keep your hands off my stack.”-The Book of Floyd.

Many TV preachers are con artists. But it’s legal, and it’s tax-free.

4

  1. They’re con men. They don’t have to justify it. But I’m sure they can find scripture that can support their deeds. You can use the BuyBull to justify anything.

  2. They’re dupes. They’ve been bamboozled into thinking these hucksters are “men of God”.

The con man and the dupe: you can’t have one without the other.

5

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]I’m not a Christian. Not hardly. Never have been, never will be. But I’ve been reading the bible recently (I don’t believe the magic stuff, but I acknowlege it’s a great book full of interesting stories) and was puzzled by Matthew 19, in which Jesus is approached by a rich man who asks him “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” and then you get this:

[quote] 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. [/quote]
biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV

So here’s my question. That’s not just the Bible speaking. That’s supposedly Jesus – the ultimate authority – speaking. Seems to me he made it pretty clear if one wants to go to heaven, not only must one obey all of the 10 Commandments, but one must not acquire wealth. If you have great wealth you must get rid of it, distribute it to the poor. And yet, as we all know, there are preachers like this:

[quote]1. Benny Hinn—Benny Hinn is known around the world for his large healing crusades. His television show airs in more than 200 countries . . . His ministry collects more than $200 million a year, and he’s admitted to his salary being over half a million. Hinn owns a private jet, lives in a $10 million house near the Pacific Ocean, stays in hotel rooms that cost thousands each night, and owns luxury vehicles. . .

  1. Joyce Meyer—Since 1999, Joyce Meyer’s ministry has spent at least $4 million on 5 homes for Meyer and her children. Meyer’s house is a 10,000 square foot home with an 8-car garage, a large fountain, a gazebo, a private putting green, a pool, and pool house with a new $10,000 bathroom. Her salary was reported at $900,000 back in 2003, and she also enjoys use of a private jet and luxury cars. . . .

  2. Kenneth Copeland . . . lives in a mansion that some have said is “the size of a hotel.” He also has acquired a $20 million Cessna Citation private jet for flying around the country to spread the word. And of course, he owns an airport for landing said airplane.

  3. Creflo Dollar . . . His church made $69 million back in 2006, and the church also provided him with a Rolls Royce. In Dollar’s words “Just because it (my life) is excessive doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong.”

  4. Eddie Long . . . has earned millions in salary from his ministry, owns a million dollar home on a 20-acre lot, has use of a $350,000 Bentley, and pulls in a host of other benefits too. . .

  5. Randy and Paula White . . . own million dollar homes across the country (including in Trump Tower). . . .[/quote]
    nakedlaw.avvo.com/2010/06/6-outr … stigation/

So my questions are:

  1. How do those millionaire preachers justify their conduct and lifestyles when it seems to be in obvious and direct conflict with what Jesus said? If you want to be a preacher fine. If you want to be a mega-millionaire fine. But how can one possibly claim to follow the bible while accumulating that level of loot?

  2. How can the flock of sheep possibly be so gullible as to believe such persons are morally or spiritually superior or worthy of listening to for their spiritual advice? Financial advice, sure, but spiritual advice? Shouldn’t it be instantly abundantly clear to all that those people are frauds?[/quote]

Even religious people want to get ahead in life. These people offer a way to soothe the contradictions. It’s immensely appealing. Lots of examples where we liberals do things that have no effect on making the world a better place be we allow ourselves to be conned into thinking we are.

Recycling and buying fair trade goods but driving an SUV?

I think people like to have their ideals and their lifestyle match. They often don’t so when someone offers a way that seems to reconcile the contradictions they are eager to embrace it to the point of being gullible. That’s probably why these preachers succeed. Anyone following them has had to turn off their capacity for genuine soul searching and reflection and critical awareness.

6

The lifestyle can be justified through a combination of arguments:

  • in the original script, “rich man” does not mean someone who has acquired wealth, but someone who loves riches and idolises wealth.
  • the “camel through the eye of the needle” is an allegory for a very narrow passage through the walls of Jerusalem (some claim there was a passage called “eye of the needle”). It might have been difficult to get a camel through but it happened fairly often.
  • Alternative: the “camel through the eye of the needle” was a common Middle-East expression denoting something that was difficult (but not necessarily impossible)
  • when you die, you can’t take it with you. At that moment you cease being rich.
7

Dude, would you let the guy who sold you a house build you an extension? Do you expect the guy who sells you a nose job to do the surgery? Often times the sales person earns more than the manufacturer thats just the way of the world.

Did Jesus define how rich ? I don’t think so. Every one reading this forum is in the top few percentiles of world wealth does that mean none of us are going to heaven?

Now if the guy had given up all his wealth and followed Jesus he may well have been crucified at the end because thats just the way life is. Even Peter knew which way up his bread was buttered (when he denied Christ 3 times before the cock crow).

I think taking a few verses and building a lifestyle around them is probably counter-intuitive. IF you read the whole book and choose to make decisions based on what you have learned then fair enough I say.

Note that there was also no definition of poor, so feel free to send any money you feel obligated to offload my way :wink:

8

Oh? And taking 10 short little commandments and building a lifestyle around them is OK?

9

Thus spaketh MT:

[quote]So here’s my question. That’s not just the Bible speaking. That’s supposedly Jesus – the ultimate authority – speaking.[/quote]Uhh…no, that is the Son of God, Jesus speaking. The Big Guy is never quoted in the New Testament…AFAIK at least. I will grant that I was raised in ‘literal interpretation’ church, so there are other thoughts and doctrines about who is who and who is saying what. Jesus came to earth to provide a pathway for mankind to gain the Kingdom of Heaven - His Fathers House, as its referred to.

MT - You stop the Biblical quote too soon. Finish the parable and it might help you grok it a bit more.

[quote]25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

27Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.[/quote]

As Greenmark mentions, its a parable about greed - the love of wealth more than the love of G-d. The reward is in Heaven for those who follow the Commandments.
(Actually its described in very easy detail in other places - Confess your sins, Accept the Lord as your Savior, Go and sin no more - its in there some place but thats the gist. PM me and I’ll look it up and send it to ya)
Then, as now, there were hustlers out to make a buck in the name of religion. This parable is aimed at those who value money/possessions/the hustle over their spiritual reward of faith. See, He covered it waaay back then. Maybe just for you to learn today?.. :wink:

By the way, if one reads the beginning of that chapter, one will see that even then, Trolls were about.

[quote]Matthew 19 (King James Version)

1 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;

2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, …[/quote]

Good luck on your journey MT…Its all about Faith…:smiley:

10

Speaking of the 10 Commandments, what’s the deal with number 2:

Does that mean the guy who made this will burn in hell for it?

Is that such a horrible crime?

And images of things below the water? WTF? Why on earth would fish sculptures be forbidden?

11

[quote=“TainanCowboy”] The Big Guy is never quoted in the New Testament…AFAIK at least. [/quote]Matt 3:17.

12

It’s “The love of money is the root of all evil.”

“A fool and his money are soon parted.” -and in the case of religion possibly butt-raped, blown up, stoned to death, or circumcised.

13

Yea, but didn’t Jesus tell the guy following the commandments wasn’t enough – he also needed to sell everything and give it to the poor – so the man left in sorrow, because he wasn’t quite willing to do that?

Not me. I couldn’t imagine being hustled by those charlatans and I can’t fathom how anyone could seek spiritual guidance from someone who makes millions providing it. It just seems so blatantly stupid I honestly don’t understand it. Presumably there are lots of doctors, lawyers, teachers and other educated folks, whom one would think are reasonably capable of rational thought, who sit in the Crystal Cathedral or other such places and dote on the wisdom of those frauds. I’m glad to hear that you, apparently, wouldn’t fall for them. I just wondered why others would. What on earth are they thinking? I think greenmark hit on something when he said maybe they’re seeking to rationalize their own greed and pretend it’s not inconsistent with their desire to follow Jesus’ teachings.

14

I’ve heard that the Greek word for “thick rope” (kamilon) is similar to the term for “camel” (kamelon), and this is all just a translation problem. I’ve also heard the story about the “eye of the needle” being a very narrow gate. And I’ve heard, “it really is a camel through the eye of a needle.”

Fortigurn? Whattaya think?

Check out millionairesforjesus.com
millionairesforjesus.com/blog/

15

‘If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.’

This bit somehow got left out of the Mormon bible (not really but they sure like MLM) and the one the Christians use in Taiwan. Christians in Taiwan are mostly rich for some reason.

16

The point is not that a rich man cannot be righteous. Abraham was a very rich man. Job was a very wealthy man and also so righteous that God was willing to bet with the Devil that no matter what was taken from him, Job would never curse God. Job lost everything and including all his sons and his health, but later God restored him to 10 times his former wealth. Two Old Testament examples.

The point is that it is very difficult for a rich man to love anything more than all his wealth. Even one who was able to keep all 10 commandments faithfully could not give up all his hard earn wealth to follow Jesus. That’s the point–that wealth is the hardest drug to quit, so to speak, and the biggest obstacle between a rich man and his faith.

The guys on TV making mega bucks are likely all just tricksters. I haven’t watched those shows, but if anyone is that wealthy, or has that much money in a Christian ministry and can’t pay their debts, then something is bad wrong, because all that wealth should be going to widows and orphans and such. Almost NO Christian congregation gives charitably (not meaning “to give to charity,” which they all do, but meaning “to give until you are needy yourself") and thus, Jesus’ parable is profoundly born out even among His followers today.

17

I’d like to test the theory out.

I just need more money.

18

Not a fair bet when Yahweh, being omniscient, knew the outcome in advance! :laughing:

19

Regarding the “it is hard for a rich man to enter heaven”. It does not say it is bad to be rich or you are not allowed to be rich, the point here and elsewhere is basically that someone with lots of money is interested in money and gets their security from money.

Regarding the making statues and idols. It is for this reason that as a general rule protestant churches do not have statues and images in their churches, it is generally only catholics* that make what they call “icons”. Catholics have a way of explaining away or interpreting the bible that is just non sensical in my opinion, how much more clear can the bible be on the issue.

*Eastern Orthodox christians and many Anglican/Episcopalian churches have Catholic like elements including having “icons”.

20

Oh? And taking 10 short little commandments and building a lifestyle around them is OK?[/quote]

Don’t put words in my mouth dude. :raspberry: