Hi,
I’m currently learning how to type in Taiwanese mandarin.
I know that both methods, Cangjie and Zhuyin(Bopomofo), are used in computer typing in Taiwan, but which method would you say is more dominant?
BoPoMoFo (Zhuyin) is most widely used in Taiwan, but everyone uses some derivative. This phenomenon is an extremely isolated case to Taiwan It is likely to also become obsolete in due time. PinYin is your best option.
[quote=“terredepomme”]Hi,
I’m currently learning how to type in Taiwanese Mandarin.
I know that both methods, Cangjie and Zhuyin(Bopomofo), are used in computer typing in Taiwan, but which method would you say is more dominant?[/quote]
Many people who type a lot use Cangjie as evidenced by the fact that virtually all Chinese engraved keyboards include the Cangjie characters in the lower-left corner.
There is/was a web site here in Taiwan of a guy who offered his own book in English on learning Cangjie but he never responded to my e-mail so I didn’t send him any money. So far, I cannot find any books on this in English.
Does anyone know how English speakers can learn Cangjie?
Then there is that ‘other’ system whose codes are in the lower-right corner of the keyboard keys. What’s that system all about and how do you get a PC to use it?
[quote=“Joschka”][quote=“terredepomme”]Hi,
There is/was a web site here in Taiwan of a guy who offered his own book in English on learning Cangjie but he never responded to my e-mail so I didn’t send him any money. So far, I cannot find any books on this in English.
Does anyone know how English speakers can learn Cangjie?
Then there is that ‘other’ system whose codes are in the lower-right corner of the keyboard keys. What’s that system all about and how do you get a PC to use it?[/quote][/quote]
I do know the guy who wrote that book. If you’re really interested, send me a PM and I’ll ask him if he’s got any left. It was quite a while ago when he printed those (maybe 7 years or so) and I don’t think he did a second print run (it wasn’t a big seller).
Otherwise, find a nice English-speaking Taiwanese who knows Cangjie and can tutor you.
I’m not sure what the other system is, but it might be Dayi. I don’t use either Cangjie or Dayi, though I admit it would be handy. Does take a lot of practice to master, or at least to become fast. I’m fine with Pinyin, except in those cases when I don’t know how to pronounce the character.
Why would it become obsolete? Why should they type in Pinyin, if they are perfectly happy with Bopomofo? Isn’t typing with Bopomofo actually more accurate than typing with Pinyin, because you have to type the tones and thus get fever candidates to select?
I have a Chinese book about Cangjie, but which is that easy to understand that you don’t have to know any Chinese to understand it (basically, it is a list of all characters with the different components highlighted in colour). The rules for Cangjie are actually realitivily (the hard part comes if it is not obvious how to dissect a character, of if you have forgotten how to write it): if you e.g. have a character with 2 horizontal parts, where the right part is again in two (vertical) parts, for example 語, the rule is the following:
From the left part (言), take the top and bottom part (卜 and 口)
From the top right part (五), take the first and the last part (一 and 一)
From the bottom right part, take the first one (I think): 口
In conclusion: 卜口一一口: 語
Here, the difficulty is to know, which characters have multiple appereances (e.g. 中 stands for 中, but also just for a plain vertical stroke). Also, you must press the key, which covers the largest part. The top dot on 言 could be written as 戈, but 卜 covers more of it (including the first horizontal line), so you have to take that one).
I think, it is quite fun and I think you can really be quite fast. I did not pursue it any further though, because I wanted to learn the pronounciation (which I think is way more important than being able to remember 5 keys for a character – which will not even give you a clue if you write it by hand) and with some characters, it is really a pain to remember how to write it.
But I think if you only type with Cangjie, and that on a regular basis, you will really be quite fast, because you don’t have to remember how to type. Your hands will just press ONF when you type 你.
Why would it become obsolete? Why should they type in Pinyin, if they are perfectly happy with Bopomofo? Isn’t typing with Bopomofo actually more accurate than typing with Pinyin, because you have to type the tones and thus get fever candidates to select?
[/quote]
You can type tone with PinYin as well. It’s just initial/final and (optionally) tone and (if needed) candidate select. Multi-character words and common phrases seem to resolve quite well on most predictors and thus don’t need tone input. Just jam away the multi-syllable character or phrase and it will figure it out.
So comparing your example, 你 is just ni3. 你覺得怎麼樣? is nijuedezenmeyang[space]?
While I think bopomofo will likely stick around for a bit for many native Taiwanese of this and next generation, but there are many reasons I feel will start to come out of favor over time. Yes, bopomofo would be fewer keystrokes, but not many, especially for people who are already fast with a western, alphabet-based keyboard. The issue is that bopomofo is endemic to Taiwan and relative to the whole, there just aren’t that many people or specifically, computer-using people in Taiwan (~15M). Without memorizing the layout, you have to buy a keyboard or laptop with bopomofo print on the keys, which is only really available in Taiwan or parts of Hong Kong, is going to be more expensive, and is going to be delayed and about half a cycle behind the progression of computers/gadgets from other locales. This presents all sorts of disadvantages and challenges.
China (~450M internet users vs TW ~15M and HK ~5M) uses PinYin and much of the Chinese speaking world is following suit. Most of the Chinese learning world uses PinYin for classes, including those of us who went through or are going through Shida, Taida, etc.
Another thing, how often do you really, ever, in real life need to handwrite anything other than your signature, name and address? Handwriting will also eventually be (or is already) obsolete, so really the only real reason to learn stroke orders, etc. at this point in time is as a help in memorization and character recognition. When writing Christmas cards last month, my friend and I exclaimed that our hands hurt… “I haven’t handwritten anything all year!” “Me neither!” Given this, one might guess that stroke-based input methods will fall out of favor to phonetic methods.
Well, there are keyboards in Sweden (9 Mio people), Island (318.000 people) etc. They also have their own keyboard.
I think printing different labels on the keys is one of the cheapest thing of a keyboard. Maybe even cheaper than printing the manual. Why should it be more expensive?
Also, it is not as if the layout would change. The keyboard makers already have the keyboard in their database, and they can just press on the print button and be done.
I really don’t see where printing Bopomofo on the keys would delay anything at all.
And that touches a Taiwanese exactly where? Everyone in Taiwan uses Zhuyin, but no one uses Pinyin (except the few foreigners, but it is unlikely that the usual Taiwanese is in contact with one). If they have contact with a mainlander, they do it in characters, not in Zhuyin or Pinyin.
Actually, in your text, you could just replace Zhuyin by “traditional Chinese” and Pinyin (btw, there is no intercapitalization in Chinese. Or do you write EnGlish alSo liKe this?) by “simplified Chinese” and the comparison would be the same. All Mainlanders use it, Singapore uses it, Malaysia uses it, every foreigner uses it. “All of Chinese language is under PRC control, except for one small island of indomitable Taiwanese that still holds out against the communists.”
I see absolutely no reason to see why Bopomofo would fall in disuse. You can write it vertically (no do with Pinyin), it doesn’t look as ugly as Pinyin in a Chinese text, every Taiwanese can use it, and all books (dictionaries etc) in Taiwan use it.
99% of the Taiwanese will never come in contact with foreigners, who need to have Pinyin. And no foreigner will use Pinyin to communicate in Chinese. That may have been necessary 10-15 years ago, but now Unicode is widely supported so you can always just type characters directly.
Even most of the mainland Chinese cannot use Pinyin. Why should the Taiwanese?
[quote=“mabagal”]
Another thing, how often do you really, ever, in real life need to handwrite anything other than your signature, name and address? Handwriting will also eventually be (or is already) obsolete, so really the only real reason to learn stroke orders, etc. at this point in time is as a help in memorization and character recognition. When writing Christmas cards last month, my friend and I exclaimed that our hands hurt… “I haven’t handwritten anything all year!” “Me neither!” Given this, one might guess that stroke-based input methods will fall out of favor to phonetic methods.[/quote]
I often write letters in Japanese by hand. But of course stroke-based input methods will fall out of use. They are just too clumsy.