Too bad he missed.
Jiang Jinguo ended Martial Law. He should be given credit for moving the Taiwan forward and opening up its political system. If it was under pressure from America so be it. America pressures many countries to do many things it believes are its interests.
The Republic of China has clearly always been a government plagued with problems, but it also always has been and still is a government preferable to the CCP. The fact that certain members of the Guomindang are now openly collaborating with the CCP is disturbing and if it continues, will undermine the ROC’s legitimacy.
Chiang Kai-Shek defended Taiwan against Communist China and built up its economy, laying the foundations for today’s economic prosperity. His son furthered the process, and opened up the political system. Li Denghui continued this.
Now, what exactly has Chen Shuibian done, except attempt to desinofy the country and go on costly overseas ventures of questionable worth? Chen, for all his talk of gaining recognition for Taiwan, speaks poor English. His cheering squad doesn’t seem to care, but others more concerned about Taiwan’s international reputation do. Again, it’s an embarrasment.
During his administration, relations with China have severly deteriorated, and the people are disillusioned with him and politics in general. He has served as a divider, not a unifier, particularly as he pushes Taiwanese over Mandarin, and ignores the country’s flag.
He was under pressure because he had sent terrorists to the US to murder people writing unflattering books about him.
It’s always been plagued by stupid, incompetent, brutal and corrupt KMT leaders.
The US defended Taiwan against Communist China and built up its economy.
CKS spoke no English and hated foreigners. CCK spoke little English…but good Russian.
And how many tens of thousands of Taiwanese has Chen had executed? 228 was kinda divisive, wouldn’t you think? BTW, the ROC as a country died the day the Red flag flew over Beijing. Live with it.
In support of CS’s post (something I thought I’d never be doing…) - how are we to judge CCK? We know LTH and CSB backwards - the media have been pulling their lives apart for our entertainment for years. CCK never faced this kind of scrutiny.
So what do we actually know? We know he was head of the Taiwan garrison command through the white terror period and therefore must share some of the blame (a lot?) for that. We also know that in the last years of his life he was a convert to democratic reform, but almost certainly for many other reasons than he actually liked the idea. He presided over a period of rapid economic growth and Taiwan’s industrial transformation - a process he admitted on several occassions to not understanding.
Apart from these three points, we really don’t know much about CCK - he was a master of covering his tracks (unlike his dad who at least had the spine to sign-off on the death warrants). Looking back at his time in power as some kind of halcyon period in Taiwan’s recent political history is an exercise in self deception. The most you can probably say is that he was wasn’t a heinous figure, but that’s not telling us very much.
The majority of the people of Taiwan speak Taiwanese NOT Mandarin. That flag has the logo of the KMT on it. It is an abomination to the Multi-party state that Taiwan has become. The KMT use to be the State not much different than the CCP is the State today in China. That flag is an anachronism representing a dead fantasy state called the ROC. Taiwan’s President Chen tolerates it more than he should!
What the heck does speaking English have to do with anything? This is Taiwan, the president needs to speak Taiwanese, Mandarin and maybe some Hakka. English is not the biggest priority, but it would be nice. Maybe if President Chen had not visited so many allies things would be even worse in terms the amount of allies. As for alienating China, well, that is not such a bad thing and I think they brought that upon themselves.
Back on topic, I kind of agree with your previous paragraphs and CCK wasn’t such a bad guy.
But protectorates of USA can also end up backwards like the Phillippines.
Given USA record at this whole nation building, it has less than a 50% of success.
But he married a “tool” that became his English speaking “mouthpeice.” USA tried to keep CKS in check with a Soong sister, but it never work out as that.
Given the fact the political consultant of the only major allie speaks only English, quite a lot. Not to mention given the fact the major political enemy uses Mandarin, also makes it a very important language to know.
You praise a leader for their ability to leader, not the ability to explain the nuiances of economic reform. Sure there are some leaders that can do both…they are rare. Deng Xiao Ping and Ronald Reagan who were also clueless about the details of what sparked the acceleration of their respective countries economic growth.
I’m more interested in what ever happen to his daughter living in CA. She got married, had a few kids and drop out of the radar.
I suspect you’re underselling Deng and overselling Reagan here…
I’d argue that any leader must have a fairly solid grasp of economic theory to be a good economic steward, otherwise policy ends up being driven by someone else down the foodchain who might not have a clue.
Luckily for CCK, that was Yu Kuo-hua, but it could just as easily have been someone who wasn’t as clued-up. If you don’t have a grasp of the fundamentals of economics, how would you know the difference?
The other potential downside of a lack of economic understanding is that policy runs the risk of being hijaked by special interests. This was arguably a factor in the KMT’s inept handling of the 10th Credit fiasco.
CCK should have pulled the carpet from under Cai Zhen-zhou (Zhen-nan?) long before early 85 when the shite hit the fan. Problem was, he didn’t understand what was going on, even though he probably heard about Cai’s money games as early as 82.
Could an RoC president get away with a scandal as big as Shi-xin today? Unlikely - the press would be all over it well before there was a meltdown. Again, CCK never faced this kind of scrutiny.
Reagan had his little S&L scandal due to his enormous talent at implementing “trickle down economics”
But the point of all three leaders I cited is that they have become icons to their respective society due to the perception among the masses that they led them to a better life.
Reagan is forgiven for all the screw-ups in foriegn policy, Star Wars weapons, Iran-Contra, I need a nap, I love Jelly bean nonsense, because he is precieved to be the one to have defeated the USSR and the reinvigorate the USA.
CJG can be said to be of the same light. All his short comings were forgiven because he made everyone on Taiwan richer than they were before.
“Desinofy”, eh? Chen’s no master statesman, to be sure, but at least he doesn’t pretend to be able to speak or write English, unlike one poster in our midst. And just show me how English was relevant to Chen’s rise to power, or for any other ROC president.
For all that, to say that Chen ignores the ROC flag is an absolute joke. Are you really in Taiwan? The man has attempted to reach out to blue moderates by embracing most of the key KMT-cum-national symbols, much to the outrage of his Taiwan-nationalist cousins. Of course, it didn’t work, because for all of his lame efforts to be a president for all, it was never, ever going to be enough for hardline blue elements. You’re among their number, of course, because always just around the corner is another demeaning, bigoted swipe at betel nut chewing, or flip-flops, or “ugly dialects”, or whatever else, regardless of the worth of people’s ideas or the importance of showing respect to others, or the simple fact that these people are living in their culture, which paradoxically for you, is the offspring of Chinese culture.
Chen could never decide what he wanted to be, and that will be his sorry legacy. You’re right that he isn’t doing a very good job, but the reasons you put forward for this are so wide of the mark as to be laughable. And the fact that you consistently fail to mention the role of extremists and anti-democrats in blue circles introducing legislation (under the very nose of Lien, and now Ma) that would result in Taiwan reverting to an autocracy suggests to me that you have no grasp of the role of the constitution, the law, the executive or all of the complex groups of people that move in these circles.
Which is to say, you have a sadly superficial grasp of what makes up a democracy, both in terms of what has to be written on paper, and in terms of the way that most people must treat one another so that members of the society have some semblance of mutual respect. No matter how incompetent the DPP is or will become, the simple fact is that the KMT is run by people, then as now, who would block or torpedo the political structures and would-be non-partisan agencies that give the country the flexibility to adjust in times of economic uncertainty.
And Chiang Ching-kuo? He detested so much of what his father did, and was so much more capable than Peanut despite his own compromised record, that it is not possible to praise both in the same breath.
As long as you cheerlead for incompetent thugs like Chiang Kai-shek, I fail to see how anyone can take you seriously when talking about Taiwan in 2005. It’s not about being blue or green, it’s about opening your damn eyes.
Nice to agree with Hobart on something, for once.
Maybe because the concept of democracy is foriegn to asia?
So how much democracy can one practice without either being fluent in the English or accultured to an Western society.
If a western leader decided to change their political system to adhere more to Confucianism, how effective would they be without being fluent in Chinese or accultured to Chinese society.
But that’s a philosophical tangent.
CJG has the “economic miracle” of Taiwan as his penance for his past transgression. CSB unfortunately has absolutely nothing besides his mouth which has only made him more enemies.
Tricky political manipulator you are. Quite the professional and that is why I still think you work for the Commies/KMT alliance thought police.
You are trying to do what the Commies do and to make Democracy look like a foreign Western concept that is not appropriate to Asia and furthermore if you are lucky, you might even be able to create a backlash to it as a foreign influence that needs to be eradicated. Create some nationalistic pride and make it seem that Democracy is the next, McDonalds/Walmart invasion of foreign culture influence. :loco: AC: you should really trade in your US passport for a PRC one, you hypocrite! :fume:
Your hatred to two term President Chen only makes me realize how powerful he is. I can see why you hate democracy when President Chen has defeated the KMT/CCP alliance picks of Lien and Soong twice! 
Those are the enemies he didn’t create as they already hated him.
Guys, last two posts are veering off topic.
Nice reply, but kind of missed my starting/finishing point, and that is we don’t really know much about CCK. The historical record on Reagan is mostly all out there for everyone to see, and the debate will probably go on forever as to whether he was a ‘good president’ (whatever that means). The record on CCK is partial and messy - largely indicative of the fact that Taiwan was still authoritarian while he was in power. We will never know just how nasty CCK was because the system he presided over tried to sanitize that record. We shouldn’t assume Henry Liu’s death was a one-off - indeed, it might well have been the tip of the iceberg in terms of cover-ups and the ‘forcible’ manufacture of consent to KMT/CCK rule. I personally don’t see CCK as a Hitler or Stalinesque figure, but how does one actually form a decisive opinion about the man? You can point to all the stuff you hate or like about CSB just by picking up a newspaper. We don’t have that luxury when talking about CCK.
What’s so messy about CCK history? As part of any nation building plan he eliminated any potential political opposition, restricted a few liberties, and released them when Taiwan was more stable.
Most people on Taiwan don’t care about the santized records of CCK. All they care about is that their pockets have more money in it today than yestarday.
Interesting.
I’d like to point out the obvious here. In order for Taiwan to make its case on the world scene, it’s going to have to do so with the diplomatic language of choice, English. Let’s just start with that first.
As I like to say in business, if you want to sell something to someone, you better speak the language of your customer.
Okay USA doesn’t speak Chinese or the Minnan dialect of Chinese.
They’ve been trying to sell Taiwan democracy and arms recently without success.
That’s why people who care about Cross Strait stability vote KMT. Money talks in Taiwanese society today. Many Taiwanese think highly of Chiang Chingkuo because he made them rich, even though his career in his younger years can hardly be called democratic.
Chen Shuibian and the DPP only know how to stoke ethnic tensions for their own political gain.
CSB should stop preaching about TI and focus on more practical issues such as making and keeping Taiwanese wealthy,an area that the KMT excels at.
Most Taiwanese reached middleclass status through simple hard work. The KMT made [i]themselves[/i] wealthy through corruption.
They weren’t allowed to protest in the time of CCK, now if for example if the KMT tried to cover up their personal sale of ill gotten state assets, there would be a call for an official inquiry and protests. Times have changed. It isn’t only about money these days. People in Taiwan have already had their taste of freedom and democracy, there is no going back now.