China is armed to the teeth. Taiwan should be as well?!

Politics Taiwan Politics
#1

China is armed to the teeth and has no real enemy. India is not poised to give it any trouble. Neither is Russia. What is the purpose of all this ? If not to address “old wounds” , namely one TAIWAN.

China arms, Taiwan needs to arm. Billions upon billions from China to Russia, and Taiwan to USA. Although of late Taiwan is bulking at paying one billion per sub (something like 4 times what it should cost) and not doing it.

Why cant China acknowledge that it really doesnt need to arm itself to the teeth because Russia, India , Taiwan, USA are all not likely to attack it. And it doesnt need all those arms.

They can continue to trade with Taiwan and welcome Taiwan genuinely to “join” with China WHEN IT WANTS TO DO SO, AT ITS OWN PACE, IF IT WANTS TO.

Why cant it be like that?

Why the perceived need and insecurity expressed by modern China? Is it because China is afraid that to give in to TAiwan being a separate entity would mean the dissolution of China itself into various countries again?

Remember all throughout its history China has been at war with itself. Mao was the first to “unify” all continental China. But somehow the PRC feels having Taiwan (an island) around is a thorn in its great quest to have ONE CHINA.

There is already ONE CHINA (and ONE TAIWAN)

Mao has already done it…unfied China, Plus hes dead folks !! Nuff of that no?

LET there be ONE CHINA (there is already) and ONE TAIWAN (there is already).

Except for Genghis Khan attacking China . And Japan once. The empire has not really had many enemies except itself?

Millions upon millions have died and suffered greatly from the Chinese killing themselves all throughout its history;. And yet China is dissatisfied that its now united under one government for the first time in its history. And it wants to risk nuclear war by fighting over a small island who is no longer even run by its old nemesis the R.O.C (who strangely enough has become somewhat of an old friend, kind of in a "the devil you know " kinda way).

Heck If I ran China. I would adopt the R.O.C constitution and name and spend much less on arms and spend the money on infrastruture and other issues to better the lives of the common folk of China. And let TAiwan come into the fold when it wants to. Taiwan is already a major part of China’s economic drive as a major producer of all things. And China is increasingly more important to the Taiwanese economy as well. NO need to threaten Taiwan to join the greater China. It probably will if you allow it to without threatening it.

#2

I wonder if people like you that were advocates of China arms development prior to the invasion of 8 nations.

Japan and China are fighting over oil that exist in a deposit between them.
India and China are fighting over the boarder still.
Russian and China are still fighting over their boarders as well.

How did you come up with your conclusions anyways?

#3

[quote=“ac_dropout”]I wonder if people like you that were advocates of China arms development prior to the invasion of 8 nations.

Japan and China are fighting over oil that exist in a deposit between them.
India and China are fighting over the boarder still.
Russian and China are still fighting over their boarders as well.

How did you come up with your conclusions anyways?[/quote]

Japan is not in a state of war with China right now and is not moving in that direction.

Russia is not in a state of war with China and is not moving in that direction. IF it was, would it provide China with all those advanced weapons?

India is not in a state of war with China and is not poised to be.

China needs arms as every nation does to protect its borders but China is clearly building an Army of aggression. Who is the target ? Could it be Taiwan perhaps?

#4

I think you’re confusing cause and effect, due to your own ignorance of Chinese history. In other words, Russia, India, Taiwan, and the USA are all not likely to attack China because it is (now) armed to the teeth.

Chinese soil has been invaded by 10+ different countries within the past century; none of these wars were initiated by Chinese aggression. Even within the past 40 years, China has fought shooting wars with Russia, India, Taiwan, Japan, and the USA. Japan’s military budget has always been an order of magnitude greater than China’s military budget, long before China’s military budget began to grow within the past 3-4 years.

All of this really makes me wonder what the United States’ goal is in terms of its hundred billion dollar defense budget. Is the United States really afraid that Mexicans, Canadians, or Cubans are about to land on American shores? When was the last time foreign troops invaded American territory? 1812? Isn’t it time for the US to turn some of its swords into plowshares?

No country on this planet gives a damn for China’s security other than China. The idea of depending on the United States or the United Nations to protect China in case of a clash with Japan over gas fields in the east China sea is pretty laughable. And of course, Taiwan is a major driving factor for China’s growing military budget. Beijing has a responsibility to preserve Chinese interests, and that includes Taiwan.

#5

I think you’re confusing cause and effect, due to your own ignorance of Chinese history. In other words, Russia, India, Taiwan, and the USA are all not likely to attack China because it is (now) armed to the teeth.

Chinese soil has been invaded by 10+ different countries within the past century; none of these wars were initiated by Chinese aggression. Even within the past 40 years, China has fought shooting wars with Russia, India, Taiwan, Japan, and the USA. Japan’s military budget has always been an order of magnitude greater than China’s military budget, long before China’s military budget began to grow within the past 3-4 years.

All of this really makes me wonder what the United States’ goal is in terms of its hundred billion dollar defense budget. Is the United States really afraid that Mexicans, Canadians, or Cubans are about to land on American shores? When was the last time foreign troops invaded American territory? 1812? Isn’t it time for the US to turn some of its swords into plowshares?

No country on this planet gives a damn for China’s security other than China. The idea of depending on the United States or the United Nations to protect China in case of a clash with Japan over gas fields in the east China sea is pretty laughable. And of course, Taiwan is a major driving factor for China’s growing military budget. Beijing has a responsibility to preserve Chinese interests, and that includes Taiwan.[/quote]

I dont have any issue with all that you have said except the part where Chinese interests include Taiwan. Thats where the problem lies. :slight_smile:

#6

To Tommy the infactile miscreant, actually there is no problem. China has all the rights to claim Taiwan. The prerequisite to ask a question why China is trying to arm, is to ask why Japan (without any enemies) is the 2nd biggest spender (apart from US) on military weapons in the world. If you still have problem understanding, the problem then lies with you. Gotcha!.

–

#7

If you don’t have guns, you can’t not use them.

#8

i applaud beebee for his extensive high-level vocab. much better than my mandarin. i especially loved good-natured tommy being described as an infantile miscreant (meaning xiao3 hun4 dan4?). good one! bravo!

#9

and I’m sure our favourite agony aunt still has a lot more of those to come… to bad sometimes her words sound like air biscuits…

#10

[quote=“cctang”]Chinese soil has been invaded by 10+ different countries within the past century; none of these wars were initiated by Chinese aggression. Even within the past 40 years, China has fought shooting wars with Russia, India, Taiwan, Japan, and the USA.
…
No country on this planet gives a damn for China’s security other than China. [/quote]

Aaah… diddums.

#11

Actually a lot of countries and NGO’s do give a damn about the security of the Chinese people…
The thing is that they are always chunnering on about it, trying to convince people that it is really true…

Like those Tibetans who get nicked and croaked just because they are a liability.

In the end, we just get this arse load of cack from the CCP… looks like the guys spend their days cabbaging or something…

#12

Oh yes, a lot of countries and NGO’s give a damn about security of the Iraqi people, too. And yet, despite all of that care, the Iraqis don’t seem to have a lot of it.

For that matter, the Opium War were about preserving freedom of choice for the Chinese consumer. Similar, the Eight Nation Alliance that invaded Beijing were there to protect Chinese religious freedoms (again, true). We Chinese are fortunate to have been blessed by such… affection… from the world.

At the end of the day, sometimes it turns out outside “charity” is not nearly as useful as self reliance and self strength.

#13

What, even with all that the Eight Nation Alliance did, it surely was peanuts compared to what the CCP did. Oh no, we don’t threat the “Chinese Nation”, we just threat the Chinese people. Don’t think that anyone has inflicted so much damage to China, then their own governments. Tell me, which country killed 70 Million Chinese?

#14

Oh I love a good Opium War licking.

So tell me cc, how did that opium get down he throats of your huddled masses. I mean we got it as far as Guangzhou, where for all the allied parties cared you could well have torched it - as long as you paid. But who pray tell sold it willi nilly all over the counryside? And why was it that opium had been for sale for eternity in the west but we never substituted food crops for it? Why did it become such a problemfor China?

Sorry bud, wasn’t our fault, so best you stop trying to whip us over that one.

And by the bye, trashng a couple of palaces in Beijing is more akin to the traditional announcement of new guests than the wanton destruction of the Taiping, no?

HG

#15

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]So tell me cc, how did that opium get down he throats of your huddled masses. I mean we got it as far as Guangzhou, where for all the allied parties cared you could well have torched it - as long as you paid. But who pray tell sold it willi nilly all over the counryside? And why was it that opium had been for sale for eternity in the west but we never substituted food crops for it? Why did it become such a problemfor China?

Sorry bud, wasn’t our fault, so best you stop trying to whip us over that one.

HG[/quote]
My comment wasn’t meant to be tongue in cheek. The war really was about increasing the choice of the consumer and bringing down trade barriers… which just goes to show how any war can be spun in the proper colors. I suppose that’s how it always is, or no would ever fight a war.

Here’s my summary of the Opium Wars:

  • it was a decadent society with numerous greedy, selfish, and weak Chinese distributing and consuming a product that would literally lead to their emotional and physical deaths; I hate and pity every single Chinese involved in the practice. Disgusting, vile, and also pathetic creatures.

  • the British banned the product in the British homelands, but had no qualms about actively participating in its distribution in China. For that reason alone, the British government of the time deserves all of my scorn and disgust. Let’s imagine for a second how the United States would react if the Colombia government, after banning the use of cocaine in its homeland, instituted an active campaign to help smugglers move the product into American streets.

  • the fact that the British later launched a military war against the Chinese government in order to diminish its ability to control the spread of this trade!? How is that action remotely defensible? Imagine if the United States didn’t launch a war on Iraq in order to “steal its oil”… but rather to make sure the markets were wide open for American-produced meth. Is there anything more outrageous?

China was fighting a war against itself, essentially, as it tried to eliminate poverty and this particular vice. For that, I hate the vice and I hate the weak. The fact that China had to fight a war with the British empire just in order to effectively carry out its own campaigns on this effort… the British empire of that era deserves to be castigated by moral and right-thinking men in all places, for all time. As far as I’m concerned, the British empire tainted its royal hands with a mark that will never fade with that particular segment of history.

#16

Do you know the real origin and meaning of that “60 or 70 million Chinese killed” statistic?

#17

to think that taiwan has the remotest chance of engaging battle against china is utterly pathetic.

if china really wanted taiwan back,they’d take it,and no-one,not even the USA would lift a finger.

taiwan should beg china to have it back actually,because the mainland is moving forward with tremendous pace while taiwan will lag behind reminiscing at how it could have been…

china is building up its arsenal is just a byproduct of tremendous wealth and prosperous development,sleep easy :wink:

#18

Yes, count the “non-patriotic” cleansing + the devastating famine that Mao infringed on his people, while using the country production to buy weapons and machinery. Some argue that Mao was unaware that “his” people was suffering because all the “communes”’ where making false production numbers in order to “uphold” the “grandiosity” of the Communist Revolution. However, the fact that international partners where refusing Chinese products because they knew the severity of the hunger, makes it very difficult to believe.
BTW, the population control and the “boy is better” Chinese tradition can make this number grow for even bigger numbers.
And let us not forget that the CCP also upheld it’s values of human love by supporting many revolutions around the world - Pol Pot comes to mind…

#19

No, looks like you aren’t aware.

The 60 million number is calculated by statistical analysis, and doesn’t represent the actual number “killed”. It represents the total number of people who had their life expectancy lowered through poor government policy: primarily the famine associated with the Great Leap Forward. Note that the number goes in only one direction: at no point does it count the number of people who had their life expectancy extended by virtue of government action. In other words, the overall change in life expectancy between 1949 (35 years of age, before the Communist takeover) and life expectancy in 1976 (~68 years, after Mao’s death) doesn’t matter… only the 2-3 years of diminished life expectancy in the aftermath of 1961 are relevant.

If we were to instead look at the number of lives lost due to government inaction… how many murders are the Indian government guilty of?

#20

A fair and very valid point.

I agree.

Hang on! Is that the plot summary for the CCTV version of the colourful period drama, “China’s humiliating Opium War”? :laughing:

Are Chinese somehow more prone to opium addiction than other races? Because despite your claim that it was banished by the British, it was freely available in various forms with nothing near the sort of problems China went on to develop. And since you mentioned it, what about India where the majority of opium was prepared? This is a point I personally find intriguing.

How was it marketed in China? Unfortunately I find the “official” descriptions version of events extremely unhelpful, in fact, worse than that, dangerously incorrect.

HG