China wants YOU! ...to protest March 12th

Politics Taiwan Politics
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The Strait Issue is a territorial dispute.

How come TI likes to frame the Strait Issue in terms of annexation and not a territorial dispute, like with Japan?

Here is the reality that Stop_ma and Shrimpcracker should contemplate.

Japan has unilaterally annexed Diaoyutai and has enforced that Japan’s EEEZ is 35 km off Taiwan northern shores. By doing so they have endangered the livelihoods of real Taiwanese fishermen in Yilan, one of last Green strongholds on the Taiwan in the north.

China on the other hand has not behaved unilaterally in this manner. Conversely China has given over 1 million Taiwanese a opportunity to pursue better livelihoods.

It is blatant hypocracy such is this why many Taiwanese are turned off the TI movement. Real Taiwanese are being negatively affected by Japan enforcement in disputed territory. Yet all the TI administration and TI supporters can do is help these fellow Taiwanese is appease Japan.

If PRC started enforcement Kinmen and Matsu as their islands, and started arresting and fining various ROC citizens, would the TI administration and TI supporter be so willing to appease?

42

The Strait Issue is a territorial dispute.

How come TI likes to frame the Strait Issue in terms of annexation and not a territorial dispute, like with Japan?

Here is the reality that Stop_ma and Shrimpcracker should contemplate.

Japan has unilaterally annexed Diaoyutai and has enforced that Japan’s EEEZ is 35 km off Taiwan northern shores. By doing so they have endangered the livelihoods of real Taiwanese fishermen in Yilan, one of last Green strongholds on the Taiwan in the north.[/quote]
Any how many Taiwanese fishermen or businessmen were killed by the Japanese in this endeavor? Please compare to the high number of Taiwanese businessmen and fishermen killed in China.

Better livelyhoods? Everytime we go to China and watch over our factories it is to make sure that work gets done, nothing gets stolen, and so we can compete with other companies which also utilize the same cheap labor. 15 years ago it was Thailand that we went to. If another nation drops by with cheaper labor, you can bet your life that we’d move.

Yes we’ve invested over 500 billion in China. For every billion, you seem to carry over more missiles. There will be 800 this year, 900 the next.
There are 1 million Taiwanese in China running 50,000 companies. The top 3 export companies in China are owned or partially owned by the Taiwanese (source: Xinhua). So China does behave unrationally towards Taiwan.

I think the people of Taiwan disagree with your false assertions. If anything your false hypocricy turns off most people except the Pan Reds. In addition the TI movement has gained more supporters over the years regardless of party popularities.
news.ncmonline.com/news/view_art … a3ccd4f871

The PRC shelled Kinmen and Matsu. Failed. Mao said that if he didn’t have Kinmen and Matsu there would be war with the United States. The 5th fleet was sent in and we didn’t see war happen did we?
We also won’t forget the 1995 and 1996 missile tests aimed at Taiwan. The constant barrage of threats from PRC generals. The WHO situation. The Chi Chi Earthquake. The list goes on and on.

43

You’re so full of it. Yes please share with us how many ROC citizens are killed by the PRC government every year in Taiwan.

We are talking about Japanese authorities suspending the rights of Taiwanese fishermen in Taiwanese water.

So in your immature rant you are claiming you are not making a better life for yourself managing a factory in China. That in fact your family’s personal wealth is decreasing every minute while the factory is in operation in China.

But it is so compelling to be in China with a factory right now. To lose money and suffer employee theft.

Why do I get the feeling your family’s wealth is going to be lost in your generation?

Under the KMT, CKS would not give up Kinmen and Matsu to the PRC. Even under threat of war and military action.

But under the DPP it would seem giving up on Diaoyutai and the rights of Taiwanese in Taiwanese waters to Japan, is almost like second nature.

PS- the article “Conducted by Bendixen & Associates” is really good example of balanced reporting…not

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You’re so full of it. Yes please share with us how many ROC citizens are killed by the PRC government every year in Taiwan.[/quote]
You’re so full of it. Yes please tell us how many ROC citizens are killed every year in the PRC. Yes there is a higher probability of being killed as well as victimized as an American or a Taiwanese person in China.

You were the one changing the topic, talking about how Chinese authorities supposedly don’t kill Taiwanese fishermen. There’s been more than a few suspect cases of piracy against Taiwanese fisherman and businessmen so…

So in your immature rant you are claiming you are not making a better life for yourself managing a factory in China. That in fact your family’s personal wealth is decreasing every minute while the factory is in operation in China.

But it is so compelling to be in China with a factory right now. To lose money and suffer employee theft. [/quote]
Lose money how? For example, when the EU stopped imports of bikes from China many Taiwanese companies lost out. But we were wise enough to maintain factories in many places. Granted if you check the recent articles about Taiwan’s bike sector, Taiwan’s high end bicycle market has been doing great!

Yes we’ve been doing pretty good. So I think you’re a bit too eager to see us losing money that you’ve imagined me writing it. Why don’t you try Voodoo or something, its better than just wishing my family bad luck.

Plus you miss the point entirely, life isn’t better in Thailand or China, or Malaysia, its best in Taiwan. (I recall something about referring you guys to a 2002 Wired article which interviewed one of my Uncles who lives in China)[no he’s not the one who makes bikes]. Wherever we maintain factories, its to compete via cost effective labor. It has nothing to do with China being great or nice or anything. The bottom line is the competitive labor. That money goes back to Taiwan.

I’m sure you’re on the path to riches yourself, Dropout. How come I get the feeling you haven’t been promoted much in many of the companies you’ve been in? Riight, you were complaining about it. So chill with the personal attacks Dropout. As you can see its not pleasant for either side.

Under the KMT, CKS would not give up Kinmen (Jinmen) and Matsu (Mazu) to the PRC. Even under threat of war and military action.

But under the DPP it would seem giving up on Diaoyutai and the rights of Taiwanese in Taiwanese waters to Japan, is almost like second nature.[/quote][/quote]

Riight, so you’re saying that the DPP would give up Kinmen and Matsu to the PRC? I haven’t seen it happen. First off the PRC was last to demand sovereignty over the Diaoyutai, and the US actually asked permission from the ROC to shell it a few times for naval tests, etc. You’re just speculating baselessly as usual.

45

ShrimpCrackers,

  1. The topic was why aren’t TI supporters up in arms over Japan’s unilateral move to take Taiwan’s territory as they are over PRC.

Your response is somewhat comical. The Taiwanese are dying.

  1. Example A: PRC gives ROC individuals economic opportunities on the mainland, in comparison to Japan that is taking away economic opportunities of ROC individuals. Thus ROC individual taking advantage of this PRC policy can make a better life for themselves.

Your response: I have a factory in the PRC and they steal from me. If a could find cheaper labor, I would. My life is good making money off PRC labor. Who me? Take things for granted? Never.

  1. Example B: The KMT demostrated they were willing to keep Matsu and Jinmen, at all cost. The DPP has demostrated they are not even willing to keep Diaoyutai at any cost, since the rights of Taiwanese fishermen are being encroached upon today.

Your response: USA acknowledges Taiwan sovereignty over Diaoyutai. DPP would never give up any territory of ROC, Taiwan.

-Now that our points are summarized. Can I ask you some questions.

a) Do you agree or disagree with LTH position of giving away Matsu and Jinmen to PRC?

b) Do you agree or disagree with LTH position of giving away Diaoyutai to Japan?

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[quote=“ac_dropout”]ShrimpCrackers,

  1. The topic was why aren’t TI supporters up in arms over Japan’s unilateral move to take Taiwan’s territory as they are over PRC.

Your response is somewhat comical. The Taiwanese are dying.[/quote]
Your response is extremely comical. You hope that the Pan Greens would be dumb enough to fight the Japanese. What do you expect us to do? Fight a militarily superior force? A country that has practically allied with us versus a Chinese invasion? Don’t be absurd. We won’t play into PRC hands.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]2) Example A: PRC gives ROC individuals economic opportunities on the mainland, in comparison to Japan that is taking away economic opportunities of ROC individuals. Thus ROC individual taking advantage of this PRC policy can make a better life for themselves.

Your response: I have a factory in the PRC and they steal from me. If a could find cheaper labor, I would. My life is good making money off PRC labor. Who me? Take things for granted? Never.[/quote]
We don’t take things for granted, why do you think we maintain factories elsewhere besides China? And yes there is a high instance of employee theft throughout Guangzhou. We don’t run slave shops either. It would be nice if Chinese officials weren’t so corrupt, so then maybe our employees could fare better.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]3) Example B: The KMT demostrated they were willing to keep Matsu (Mazu) and Jinmen, at all cost. The DPP has demostrated they are not even willing to keep Diaoyutai at any cost, since the rights of Taiwanese fishermen are being encroached upon today.

Your response: USA acknowledges Taiwan sovereignty over Diaoyutai. DPP would never give up any territory of ROC, Taiwan.[/quote]
I don’t see the KMT actually taking control of the islands, so they’ve done absolutely nothing. As of today, Japan holds sovereignty over the islands.
Okay some fishermen can’t fish there, big deal, however the islands are great in providing negative sentiment against the Chinese amongst the Japanese. If it weren’t for the potential gas fields, the islands would be trashed by China today much like Taiwan was long ago.

-Now that our points are summarized. Can I ask you some questions.

a) Do you agree or disagree with LTH position of giving away Matsu (Mazu) and Jinmen to PRC?

b) Do you agree or disagree with LTH position of giving away Diaoyutai to Japan?[/quote]

  1. What to do Matsu and Kinmen should be left to policy makers more knowledgeable about their status and history. What I do know is that its hilarious that Matzu and Kinmen, being sooooo close to China, is left unconquered by the CCP under the excuse of having them being used as “links”. How? Thats like saying my welcome mat is on your property for communication and friendship purposes. It sounds absurd. If the CCP cannot even invade Matzu and Kinmen, it shows how afraid they are of the US military intervening once again. Go Status Quo!

  2. I agree with the negotiations taking place that may allow Taiwan and Japan to work out some sort of deal over the Senkaku/Diaoyutai islands. As of current the Japanese have military and political superiority over the lands and hold ALL the cards. No amount of mere talking is going to make them hand over the islands unless the PRC or Taiwan produces their own or wages war. Although the Diaoyutai has the potential of great income, for now, Taiwan can do without it, because as far as I know, Taiwan isn’t exactly experienced in drilling gas resources of this sort, so its not like we’re going to take advantage of it overnight. In addition Taiwan having Japan as a current ally versus China, makes this position far more useful. Last I recall, thanks to the Diaoyutai, Japanese sentiment towards the Chinese is slowly inching towards the icy chill level that the Chinese feel towards the Japanese.

I suggest you convince your PRC compatriots to eat their own words and actually do something, even wage war with Japan as some of their people have suggested if they really think the Diaoyutai is so worth it.

Heck, why haven’t I seen any of your Pan Blue compatriots taking unilateral action on this besides showboating pointlessly? They seem to have no problems making closed door deals with Beijing, why can’t they use their masterful political skills in dealing with Japan too? Maybe then Japan too will try to send us a pair of rare animals for our zoos.

47
  1. I never suggested the DPP enter a war with Japan. However, it is interesting to note you perceive Japan to be militarily superior to Taiwan, hence, it is entitled to take territory away from Taiwan.

Yet the PRC is also militarily superior to Taiwan as well, you still advocate a position that will eventually lead to war with China.

When has Japan ever intervened in a China v. Taiwan conflict?

  1. The point you take for granted is that the PRC could start policies to discriminate against ROC citizens in the future, if TI gets out of hand on Taiwan.

Of course you not being a Taiwanese citizen would not be too greatly affected by this.

  1. That attitude is the reason why my hometown of Yilan, is slowly becoming more Blue. It use to be a Green stronghold, where us Yams (hanji), the true Hoklo Taiwanese, would stick together in the sea of Blue.

So if our livelihood of being fishermen is not a concern to TI, why should we support any pan-Green party or their political ambition of TI?

  1. It never ceases to amaze me how far TI supporters are willing to go to appease Japan.
    Japan took Taiwan’s territory and all TI supporters can say is
48

It’s also sickening to any responsible world citizen to see TI/ers express their blatantly opportunistic attitude that somehow, bad relationship between Japan and China is “good for TI/ers,” that war and chaos in Asia is “good for TI/ers,” so these should all be promoted. I say shag them.

49

From the China Post:

Wow! There Taiwanese rage over the NUC decision is truly breath-taking, eh AC Dropout?!!

50

The level of apathy in Taiwanese politics is growing quickly… a positive move.

We’ll see how much support/outrage CSB can muster towards Ma’s betrayal of Taiwan next weekend… you know, at the parade that Annette Lu said should just be cancelled.

51

Ma and Soong: Posterboys for Chinese propaganda

[quote]Led by Ma Ying-jeou, chairman of the main opposition Kuomintang (KMT), the marchers braved light rain and walked to the “presidential” palace in Taipei, waving banners reading “We love peace! We hate war!”

Local media reports said the column of demonstrators was as long as 6 kilometres. Organizers had said they planned to mobilize 100,000 people to take part in the protest.

Ma said the march was meant to warn Chen’s Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) administration to avoid exploiting cross-Straits issues for political gain and spend more time improving the state of Taiwan’s economy and the quality of its administration.

“There are very severe grievances from the grassroots about the government, their livelihood…,” Ma said.

The island’s opposition heavyweights, including People First Party Chairman James Soong, New Party Chairman Yok Mu-ming and Taiwan’s “parliamentary” speaker Wang Jin-pyng, joined the demonstration.

Demonstrators carried banners criticizing Chen’s “independence”-leaning policies, and demanded he “terminate (his) corrupt regime.”

Allegations of government corruption paid a large role in the stinging defeat sustained by the DPP in local elections in December.

“We don’t need Taiwan ‘independence.’ We want to live, we want to survive,” said a retired veteran surnamed Lee.

“Taiwan ‘independence’ is a dead end. It is (Chen’s) own personal view, not the view of the majority of the people,” Lee said.

Ma, seen as the opposition’s best hope to win the “presidency” in 2008, blamed Chen for unnecessarily provoking Beijing, saying the government should focus on the economy rather than politics.

“The government has been reeling from one scandal after another and people are suffering, but our ‘president’ chooses to make ‘independence’ his main agenda,” the KMT leader said.

“We must let our government hear the real voice of the people,” said Ma, whose party opposes “independence” and favours closer ties with the mainland. [/quote]

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Oh no! Poster child!
Come on, you’ve got anything better?
CSB is the poster child of the PLA right now. They love him to no end. Gives them cover to increase their budget.

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[quote=“ac_dropout”]1) I never suggested the DPP enter a war with Japan. However, it is interesting to note you perceive Japan to be militarily superior to Taiwan, hence, it is entitled to take territory away from Taiwan.

Yet the PRC is also militarily superior to Taiwan as well, you still advocate a position that will eventually lead to war with China.

[/quote]
So you suggest that sending warships to instigate Japanese warships will not lead to war, how?

Sorry, China is the aggressor here. If I tell you that if you exercise your right to free speech, I’d punch you across the face, you exercise your right, and I punch you, who is the aggressor then? Of course with your logic, its you.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]When has Japan ever intervened in a China v. Taiwan conflict?
[/quote] They signed an agreement with the united states stating that China attacking Taiwan is not in their best interests.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]2) The point you take for granted is that the PRC could start policies to discriminate against ROC citizens in the future, if TI gets out of hand on Taiwan.

Of course you not being a Taiwanese citizen would not be too greatly affected by this.[/quote]
I think you and Zeugmite are stalking the wrong people, you both have really really off notions of who I am. I mean look at KuoMinTang/HotBloodPatriot, the guy thinks I am Korean.

PS: I have a dual citizenship. ROC and USA.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]3) That attitude is the reason why my hometown of Yilan, is slowly becoming more Blue. It use to be a Green stronghold, where us Yams (hanji), the true Hoklo Taiwanese, would stick together in the sea of Blue.

So if our livelihood of being fishermen is not a concern to TI, why should we support any pan-Green party or their political ambition of TI?[/quote]
Then don’t. I don’t really care about you AC. I honestly don’t think you are from Yilan, but then again, learning from Zeugmite and yourself, its obvious that notions could be really wrong, as you are with me.

Anyway, why don’t you move to China instead of the United States. In fact, China is a place where they’d pay you for your comments on forums, if they aren’t already.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]4) It never ceases to amaze me how far TI supporters are willing to go to appease Japan.
Japan took Taiwan’s territory and all TI supporters can say is

54

No it doesn’t. Negotiations took place in 1992 with each side satisfied with whatever statement that side made going in. It did not affect Taiwan’s sovereignty (whatever you bellieve it to be) in 1992, and will not be any different now.

55

No it doesn’t. Negotiations took place in 1992 with each side satisfied with whatever statement that side made going in. It did not affect Taiwan’s sovereignty (whatever you bellieve it to be) in 1992, and will not be any different now.[/quote]

Jeezus, zeugmite! 1992 is OLD NEWS that is no longer relevant – if, in fact, it ever was.

56

No it doesn’t. Negotiations took place in 1992 with each side satisfied with whatever statement that side made going in. It did not affect Taiwan’s sovereignty (whatever you bellieve it to be) in 1992, and will not be any different now.[/quote]

Yes and I believe that China has recently reiterated that the One China Policy must be agreed upon before negotiations take place. That easily trashes what is commonly called the 1992 consensus.

Unfortunately, the KMT Chairman, as well as the President of Taiwan, have also reiterated that the destiny of Taiwan belongs to the People of Taiwan. As no vote or referendum was made, we can’t go into sweeping agreements surrendering the sovereignty of Taiwan and vastly, unilaterally.

57

No it doesn’t. Negotiations took place in 1992 with each side satisfied with whatever statement that side made going in. It did not affect Taiwan’s sovereignty (whatever you bellieve it to be) in 1992, and will not be any different now.[/quote]

Jeezus, zeugmite! 1992 is OLD NEWS that is no longer relevant – if, in fact, it ever was.[/quote]

What does that have to do with anything I said? Read.

58

[quote=“zeugmite”]

What does that have to do with anything I said? Read.[/quote]

What does 1992 have to do with the PRC’s intentions at PRESENT?!!

59

No it doesn’t. The One China Policy has always been Beijing’s position. That there was one China was part of the 1992 concensus. The tacit agreement was no connotation such as PRC or ROC would have to be “agreed to” or “accepted” but simply put aside and ignored. That does not prevent the PRC from having a position of its own on the connotation and neither does it prevent the ROC from doing the same.

What sovereignty will be surrendered by sticking with the letter of the existing One China ROC constitution? That’s Frank Hsieh’s and I’m sure the Blue’s characterization of the ROC constitution, not mine.

If you want to say, because you want TI, you don’t want to mention that constitution any more, fine. But then it’s an issue of TI/ers call on whether they want to negotiate or not, because on the issue of sovereignty, the constitution hasn’t budged between 1992 and now. This has zero to do with the PRC insisting anything about Taiwan giving up its sovereignty. Stop conflating the issues.

60

No it doesn’t. Negotiations took place in 1992 with each side satisfied with whatever statement that side made going in. It did not affect Taiwan’s sovereignty (whatever you bellieve it to be) in 1992, and will not be any different now.[/quote][/quote]

Interesting thought…

Now that I look at it, I realize that you’re promoting empty words. After all, you’re arguing that its okay to make promises as long as you don’t fulfill them.

Otherwise you’re saying that you’re satisfied with fruitless debates, as neither side gave ground in the 1992 consensus, as the KMT believes that it owns China, and the PRC believes that it owns ‘China which includes Taiwan’ so nothing has changed.

Keep making empty promises, and one day one will come bite you when you least expect it.