Ugly Chinese ultra-nationalism and xenophobia on display? Rightful indignation at Japanese recalcitrance?
Is this how the '08 Olympics are going to be?
China get over it…you have 5000 years of murdering your neighbors so get off the blame game. Oh…I’m sorry…China’s borders are defined by the late Ming Dynasty and its history begins in 1937 at the marco Polo Bridge. A collective national memory like a Possum’s Dick…short and fuzzy.
What does a soccer match between China and Japan have to do with Taiwan politics? :eh:
Side note:
But last year, relations nose-dived further after a three-day sex romp involving hundreds of Japanese tourists and Chinese prostitutes at a hotel in south China. Some Chinese were convinced the orgy was timed to humiliate China as it coincided with the eve of the anniversary of the start of Japan’s occupation of China – September 18, 1931.
I can just hear Annette Lu now…attention all DPP members: Our annual party meeting will be held on Sept. 18, 19:31hrs. Clothing optional.
[quote=“hsiadogah”]Ugly Chinese ultra-nationalism and xenophobia on display? Rightful indignation at Japanese recalcitrance?
Is this how the '08 Olympics are going to be?[/quote]
This is an example of where, if you’re not Chinese, it’ll be really hard to understand. Only people who have shared experiences of similar brutalities would understand. My Jewish friend who visited both the Holocaust memorial and the Nanking memorial finally realized the kind of atrocities the Japanese did to the Chinese as the Germans did to the Jews. He didn’t understand why no one in the US knew about it.
There are many Chinese people who feel that the (continued) Taiwanese love affair with the Japanese is entirely disgraceful. Not unlike how people viewed German collaborators in WW2.
[quote=“lsieh”]
This is an example of where, if you’re not Chinese, it’ll be really hard to understand. Only people who have shared experiences of similar brutalities would understand.
[/quote]Which puts me on the same footing as my Taiwanese friends of the same age, or anyone in China who grew up after the cultural revolution, or isn’t a minority, and didn’t join any democracy protests and go to the laogai… Don’t tell me you’re going to claim some ‘cultural memory’ now.
[quote=“lsieh”]My Jewish friend who visited both the Holocaust memorial and the Nanjing memorial finally realized the kind of atrocities the Japanese did to the Chinese as the Germans did to the Jews. He didn’t understand why no one in the US knew about it.
[/quote]Yes of course, but Germans don’t get booed onto football fields. What the fuck has a Japanese soccer squad got to do with Japanese war atrocities? Let’s just gloss over the fact that Chinese killed more Chinese during and after WW2 than the Japanese did. Let’s just gloss over the fact that the Chinese massacred tens of thousands in Xinjiang and Tibet, forced sterilization, forced abortion, torture… Put simply, they live in a glass house and yet are fond of throwing stones. They welcome Japanese investment and tourism, but boo the soccer squad and supporters. Go picket the embassy if you have a beef with the government. All they are doing is making China look ugly, radical and unwelcoming.
[quote=“lsieh”]There are many Chinese people who feel that the (continued) Taiwanese love affair with the Japanese is entirely disgraceful. Not unlike how people viewed German collaborators in WW2.[/quote]Except that Japanese treated Taiwan as one it’s own provinces, not like some expendible temporary staging post. Except that the so-called liberators were far more brutal than the Japanese ‘invaders’.
[quote=“hsiadogah”][quote=“lsieh”]
This is an example of where, if you’re not Chinese, it’ll be really hard to understand. Only people who have shared experiences of similar brutalities would understand.
[/quote]Which puts me on the same footing as my Taiwanese friends of the same age, or anyone in China who grew up after the cultural revolution, or isn’t a minority, and didn’t join any democracy protests and go to the laogai… Don’t tell me you’re going to claim some ‘cultural memory’ now.[/quote]
Contrary to your belief, there does exist “cultural memory”. It comes in many different forms. It is often preserved through shared experiences, education (history texts, civic lessons etc), family stories, memorials - personal and national ones etc. The Japanese are painfully aware of this and hence their continued refusal to honestly and openly address it. The shame associated with the WW2 “cultural memory” has been institutionalized. The most common form of “cultural memory” is called “social history”.
[quote=“hsiadogah”][quote=“lsieh”]My Jewish friend who visited both the Holocaust memorial and the Nanjing memorial finally realized the kind of atrocities the Japanese did to the Chinese as the Germans did to the Jews. He didn’t understand why no one in the US knew about it.
[/quote]Yes of course, but Germans don’t get booed onto football fields. What the fuck has a Japanese soccer squad got to do with Japanese war atrocities? [/quote]
People never forget, nor should they forget history. You might want to ask the Jews, people like Elie Weisel, why he did what he did, and whose legacy is carried forth into 2004 and beyond, even though WW2 ended almost 60 years ago. The Jewish victims of WW2 continue to receive recompensation and official apologies of contrition even now (see Swiss banking scandals re: Nazi monies stolen from Jews). As representatives of your own people, other people will always and naturally view you as a representative. No one can ever escape that.
That’s all true, but that’s a different issue than the topic of this thread - why are the Chinese behaving boorishly toward the Japanese.
I think it’s irrelevant whether an occupying country was “nice” or not. A person working with foreign invaders is the definition of a traitor and worthy of no mercy. If some country said to me that the USA had to fly their flag but they’d keep pretty much everything else the same, I’d tell that country to screw themselves and pick up a gun. Like your feelings toward the PRC if they said, fly my flag but I’d keep everything else the same, you’d say the same thing you’ve always said here, ‘fuck you and now I’m gonna kill some of you’. There’s no difference between the Taiwanese attitude toward the Japanese, mine, and yours vs. the PRC.
I really wonder what does Taiwan’s relationship with Japan has anything to do with people in China. They can label us with terms such as traitors, little Japanese lapdogs or whatever else. It wouldn’t matter.
The fact is that they are so quick to forget any astrocities the Chinese might had done towards the others or to themselves but cry fouls for 100 years if the others do the same back to them.
That is just being oxymoronic.
I really wonder what does Taiwan’s relationship with Japan has anything to do with people in China. They can label us with terms such as traitors, little Japanese lapdogs or whatever else. It wouldn’t matter.
The fact is that they are so quick to forget any astrocities the Chinese might had done towards the others or to themselves but cry fouls for 100 years if the others do the same back to them.
That is just being oxymoronic.[/quote]
Careful, careful … I said “Chinese people”, I did not say “the people from the PRC”. They are not necessarily one and the same (unless you’re maowang). 
As for the point you and hsiadogah bring up re: China has unclean hands so therefore they have no right to cry foul either doesn’t negate or de-legitimizes their feelings toward the Japanese re: WW2 atrocities.
True, but it’s more or less the same because the majority of the Chinese population does resides in the PRC. But even if the oversea Chinese holds the same opinion, it doesn’t make it any less oxymoronic.
[quote=“lsieh”]
Contrary to your belief, there does exist “cultural memory” (and a lot of other psychobabble…)
[/quote] It’s just the leftovers of whatever they taught you in school. If the Japanese were demonized in the PRC education system, and the media, then this is the result. Maybe you’ve answered the question.
[quote]
People never forget, nor should they forget history. You might want to ask the Jews, people like Elie Weisel, why he did what he did, and whose legacy is carried forth into 2004 and beyond, even though WW2 ended almost 60 years ago. The Jewish victims of WW2 continue to receive recompensation and official apologies of contrition even now (see Swiss banking scandals re: Nazi monies stolen from Jews). As representatives of your own people, other people will always and naturally view you as a representative. No one can ever escape that.
[/quote]Except that noone takes this out on young Germans or Swiss people. Is the holocaust forgotten? No. Is it rammed down the throat of every young German, that had nothing to do with it? No.
[quote]
I think it’s irrelevant whether an occupying country was “nice” or not. A person working with foreign invaders is the definition of a traitor and worthy of no mercy.
[/quote]Weeelll, the Taiwan/Japan situation is a bit different eh. First off Taiwan was ceded to Japan legally. Second, the Taiwanese were given six months to decide if they wanted to stay in Taiwan and become Japanese nationals, or go somewhere else. Many did leave and go to China. Are you saying that all who stayed were traitors to the Chinese race or something?
Well I hope more Taiwanese grow the nuts to tell the PRC to fuck off or die. We also know that PRC promises to fly their flag here, but not change anything, are horseshit. None of this excuses the Chinese fans for their unsporting behaviour. Are you going to support their right to behave like that? What if they carry on like that at the Olympics?
However, when German and Israeli teams play one another, the fans don’t boo the teams, they don’t throw bottles at the players, etc. That is what has been happening the entire tournament in China for the Japanese team. Even before tonight’s match (won 3-1 by Japan), Chinese were holding anti-Japanese rallies with signs. If THIS is how Beijing is going to treat its guests, I have to question their worthiness to host the 2008 Olympics.
[quote=“lsieh”][quote=“hsiadogah”]Ugly Chinese ultra-nationalism and xenophobia on display? Rightful indignation at Japanese recalcitrance?
Is this how the '08 Olympics are going to be?[/quote]
This is an example of where, if you’re not Chinese, it’ll be really hard to understand. Only people who have shared experiences of similar brutalities would understand. My Jewish friend who visited both the Holocaust memorial and the Nanjing memorial finally realized the kind of atrocities the Japanese did to the Chinese as the Germans did to the Jews. He didn’t understand why no one in the US knew about it.
There are many Chinese people who feel that the (continued) Taiwanese love affair with the Japanese is entirely disgraceful. Not unlike how people viewed German collaborators in WW2.[/quote]
To be fair to Beijing, they have blitzed the public through all media channels in the past couple of days about the importance of being civil before, during and after the game. It’s been all over the mainland media.
Yes, the Japanese did some atrocious shit on the mainland. Not that a comparison really matters, but I’d say they did worse than the Nazis. I do believe that Beijing tries to milk animosity toward the Japanese for all it’s worth, though. To them, it is a big political tool, though they admittedly don’t have to do much to prime the people’s hatred for the Japanese.
It seems to me that it is the northerners who have the strongest hatred for the Japanese. Most southerners don’t seem to give a shit anymore. I’ve known young, educated northerners who refused to have anything to do with anything Japanese. They won’t buy anything that has any connection to Japan. Strangely, though, a lot of the Japanese speaking employees in my previous company were from the northeast. It seems that most mainlanders who learn Japanese do it in Manchuria. Is there still a cultural imprint?
I think Beijing does bend things quite a bit. I seem to remember at least one Japanese PM stating that Japan “regrets” the atrocities it committed during the war. That isn’t enough for Beijing, and I don’t think this statement of regret was even reported in the mainland press. Beijing wants the words “sorry” or “apology.” The problem, though, is that those words imply a sense of personal responsibilty. People have been nailed to the wall in legal cases because they used those words, thus admitting personal responsibility when that wasn’t their intention. Although it seems that some Japanese people are ignorant of what their country did in China, most of the people who were personally responsible are already dead. I don’t see the sense in telling the Japanese people, the vast majority of whom weren’t even adults during the war, that they are responsible for what happened and that they should apologize.
I don’t know Japan very well. I have become friends with about a dozen Japanese people outside of Japan at different times in my life. I think I talked about this subject with all of them. Most of them were not familiar with the details of what Japan did in China, but they know generally that what Japan did was wrong. However, they think the Chinese are trying to beat the issue to death and just get money out of Japan. That seems to be the impression that Japanese people have about Chinese people: they are obsessed with money and that their reason for dwelling on the atrocities is just to get money from Japan. The Japanese I have known were not really in the dark about what Japan did in the war; it just seemed like they thought their country didn’t want to humble itself to China.
Wonder what the final results of the match were.
Japan 3 China 1
This is a very fine example of how collective experience has more to do with identity than “a common culture, language and history.” The PRC and ROC narratives of Chinese history do not fit with the collective experiences of Taiwanese. That is one reason why Taiwanese are Taiwanese and not Chinese.
[quote=“lsieh”]
I think it’s irrelevant whether an occupying country was “nice” or not. A person working with foreign invaders is the definition of a traitor and worthy of no mercy. If some country said to me that the USA had to fly their flag but they’d keep pretty much everything else the same, I’d tell that country to screw themselves and pick up a gun. Like your feelings toward the PRC if they said, fly my flag but I’d keep everything else the same, you’d say the same thing you’ve always said here, ‘fuck you and now I’m gonna kill some of you’. There’s no difference between the Taiwanese attitude toward the Japanese, mine, and yours vs. the PRC.[/quote]
but through the history of taiwan at that point, ALL governments on the island had been imposed by foreign invaders. the japanese are thought of more fondly as better invaders than the chinese. to carry your analogy to an extreme, every historically significant figure in taiwan’s history who was not fighting for direct political independence for the island is a traitor.
koxinga was not fighting for taiwanese independence, how would you classify him?
And the Chinese fans turns out rioting as expected.
They shouted slogans that the game result was unfair, referees were bias, and that the Japanese team stole their victory.
Does this sound similiar to the some Pan-Blue behaviours to anyone? Bad losers, bad players and bad supporters.
This makes you wonder if Beijin is really fit to host the 2008 Olympic games. I suppose we ought to hand out all the gold medals in advance to their team before the games are even played to avoid a national riot by the Chinese if they loose.
2008 will be very interesting. i can’t wait to see ugly chinese nationalism on full display in front of the world.
His son sort of did. He even wrote a letter to the Qing emperor stating so.
But anyway, it is true that by lsieh’s standard then anyone who worked with the KMT party is a traitor of Taiwan by definition.
[quote=“Flipper”][quote=“lsieh”]
I think it’s irrelevant whether an occupying country was “nice” or not. A person working with foreign invaders is the definition of a traitor and worthy of no mercy. If some country said to me that the USA had to fly their flag but they’d keep pretty much everything else the same, I’d tell that country to screw themselves and pick up a gun. Like your feelings toward the PRC if they said, fly my flag but I’d keep everything else the same, you’d say the same thing you’ve always said here, ‘fuck you and now I’m gonna kill some of you’. There’s no difference between the Taiwanese attitude toward the Japanese, mine, and yours vs. the PRC.[/quote]
but through the history of Taiwan at that point, ALL governments on the island had been imposed by foreign invaders. the Japanese are thought of more fondly as better invaders than the Chinese. to carry your analogy to an extreme, every historically significant figure in Taiwan’s history who was not fighting for direct political independence for the island is a traitor.
koxinga was not fighting for Taiwanese independence, how would you classify him?[/quote]
Koxinga was a Ming loyalist invader. As an invader, he should be resisted.
Allowing oneself to be subjucated by a foreign entity is something in my morals, ethics, values world you just don’t accept. Even though a foreign invader may treat the local people “nicely”, the fact is (1) it’s a foreigner(!) who’s telling you how to live, violating the principles of self-determination and liberty, and (2) those foreign people will always look down on you. Those conditions are unacceptable to me. I understand not every one feels that passionately about it, but that’s my position.