They learned to obey the CCP or risking being run over by tanks. The Communist party needs to constantly creat an external enemy so people can vent their disatisfations once in a while, but only go as far as the party will allow.
Everyone learned how to play the role, according to the script that’s written for them.
Comparisonly, the DDP in Taiwan needs to constantly look over their shoulders for the US approval, but more willing to test the limit, steps by steps, backs off when necessary, then tries again when time is right.
But people in China doesn’t have that luxury.
Besides that I think there are other typical Chinese mentality involves.
I understand your point of view and many will probabaly feel the same. Except you need to be clear on your position on the KMT party, because they are as foreign as Koxinga.
Now the differenece in my opinion is this, why should the Taiwanese peopel still carry such a resentments towards the Japanese, and be catogorized as a disgraceful Japanese collaborators by the Chinese people?[/quote]
I’m taking a little sabbatical from the TP forum but I wanted to respond to your comments.
First, there is a “common bond” among the hua ren, the so-called Chinese diaspora. I am only describing what is out there, not going to begin to explain why, but it exists. You travel to the Greater Chinese speaking regions of the world and you’ll see there is are shared commonalities and bonds. Once such commonality is the shared experiences of the Chinese by the Japanese during WW2. Now, most people in this Greater China Region would consider Taiwanese people to be a part of this “hua ren” world, Greater China region. So when one part of this “family” is brutalized by the Japanese, it would be really inappropriate for some part of this “family” to support them.
The wounds of the Japanese experience hasn’t gone away and I don’t believe they will until there’s full restitution and apologies for their acts. That’s my read of the situation. The histories of the Chinese, Japanese are much different than European nations and so comparisons to those histories are not helpful because nation and people’s histories are too different and complex to simply say, “If X can do it, why can’t Y do it?”
I can, because that’s human nature. Human histories say that is the normal thing. The high-road of reconciliation does not happen except for only the most advanced and evolved nations.
What I’ve found is that because of Taiwan’s unique historical development, it allows the people to be really comfortable with foreign occupation and presence. I think that’s a characteristic of Taiwanese people in general.
Yes, reconciliation should be a goal. I just don’t think that’s a goal that’s easily or readily achievable in many instance for most people because histories are ingrained in the minds and hearts of people; it is a part of who they are. 50 years is not a long time by historical standards.
I can’t really agree with that. The fighting is simply done for the sake of it, for fun. I think the Chinese in Beijing just fancied a bit of riot, and this was a good excuse that wouldn’t get them locked up by the PSB. Apparently the CCP allows expressions of antipathy towards Japan as well as graciously allowing Japan to invest huge sums of money in China. This is Japan’s punishment for Manchuria, Nanjing, and the Spratly Islands, or whatever they’re called.
The Chinese government is being accused on the one hand of stoking up xenophobic riots, and on the other of bringing out thousands of cops with dogs straining at the leash to keep the fans in line. Also the team coach is being held up as an example of Chinese lack of sportsmanship, despite the fact that he is Dutch. How many more anti-China angles can you come up with for this story?
Right, but personally just because such thing exists doesn’t mean it is right, nor does it mean I have to act to such standard accordingly, nor does it make me wrong.
Not that I am saying that the Chinese can’t hold negative feelings towards what the Japanese did to them during WWII. But there’s a certain limits on how far they can act on these resentments, also a limit that they can not force other people to carry the such generalized resentments, or face the risk of being labeled as a murdering collaborator.
For example, some radical Muslims hates the Americans so much that they are willing to commit murderous, brutal acts, such as the attacks on the WTC. But their personal hatreds does not give them any higher moral for commiting such acts, nor will they have the rights to demand their Muslim brothers to hold the same resentments as them.
Now the Americans certainly did not take the attack lightly, but their feelings has to be targetted at a select few who is, or might be, responsible for such actions. Such as the Al-Qaida terrorists. But the Americans do not have the right to generalized their resentments towards a broader catogory of all Muslims or Arabians. That will be racist, and wrong. Nor will the Americans have the right to demand their Canadian friends to hate all Arabians or Muslims. That will be wrong, and unacceptable to the Canadians as well.
Then I have Japanese friends, I am not going to go up to him and demand him to be held personally responsible, or force him to apologize, or force him to admit, the atrocities that his ancestors had done during WWII. He does not need to carry such a burden. Because that’s just broad generalization that has nothing to do with him, nor do you know if his grandparents was a soldier during WWII or not. Even if they were, they were also the victim of their own Imperial Japan, which was a different government and mentality from the present days. The Americans had also done Japan a great deal of atrocities by attacking the civilians in the city, and also the later bombing of the two Atomic bombs. The Americans also drop bombs in Taiwan cities as well, which resulted in civilian casualties.
Now do I have the right to demand the Chinese friends to hate all Americans, based on our common brotherhood of “Hua Ren”? Or will they have the right to demand me of carrying a resentments towards the Japanese? If there were three people in one room, me, a Japanese, and a Chinese, will that Chinese person have the right to demand me to be racists and discriminating against the other Japanese person, simply based on racial profiling?
Now as for the “Hua Ren” community goes, I simply do not care. We might have a commonly shared bond, that might make it easier for us to be closer, but it does not have to be. When you talk about “Hua Ren”, it is based on on language more than anything else. For example, you can have a Vietnamese friends, many of them will know how to speak both Vietnamese and Cantonese. Now because they speak Cantonese, a commonly shared language, you can catogorized them as Hua Ren. But if they do not speak our language, it is very unlikely that you will consider them as Hua Ren, no more than you will consider any other Asians who does not speak the Chinese dialects as Hua Ren, such as the Philippians or Koreans.
But now what will we do, our “Hua Ren” friends such as a Vietnamese can demand me to hate both Chinese and Americans. So now I must bare the responsibily to hate all the Chinese, Japanese, Americans, and Arabians? That is utterly ridiculous.
And as your logic as that the Taiwanese people are made to be more comfortable with foreign occupations based on our unique historic developments. You’ll have to think again, because it is not because we want it, or are quicker to forget. It is because we are always being forced to be moved on to the next occupation by another foriegn government. We were always powerless, and could not, decide our own fate. Also we know that what the Chinese had done to us, is no less than, and even more recent, than what the Japanese did. But you can not blame all the Chinese people for those atrocities, but the KMT and it’s soldiers. The same way that it is the Japanese Imperial government and soldiers who committed the crimes against the Chinese, not the general people.
So where is the “Hua Ren” communities’ high morality to demand us to carry their hatreds when we told them that the Chinese did not consider us as their own, and kill an entire generation of our best intellectures There is NONE, IMHO.
Right, but personally just because such thing exists doesn’t mean it is right, nor does it mean I have to act to such standard accordingly, nor does it make me wrong.
[/quote]
If you believe that my comments are in support of this kind of behavior, let’s put that to an end now. I don’t. I understand where it comes from and the roots for it.
I am saying that Chinese nationalism, is a force few take seriously or misunderstand its roots. Failure to acknowledge the particular virulence of Chinese nationalism will prove to be a huge mistake.
Exactly, you’re proving my point. Hence the reason for Taiwanese to easily accept occupation of foreign entities a lot easier than other peoples. Taiwan has a problem in the sense that it does not have any strong nationalistic impulses. There are a few who are trying to rally nationalism based on some amorphous “native” influences-theory (see maowang), but it’s not going to work. Taiwan is a nation of people who will roll-over when invaded. They’ve done it before, and they’ll do it again when the PRC comes knocking one day. Taiwan is “used to it”, comfortable with foreign occupation.
Whether or not the other hua-ren’s attitudes toward the Taiwanese hua-ren is “right” or “wrong” is not the issue here, it’s merely an observation.
The Chinese government also school bused a whole bunch of students to a spontaneous protests to the US embassies, but later had to refrain them, to prevent things going out of control.
They will flame some serious anti-TI nationalism, from every aspects of their media, but usually will not allow an unapproved nationalistic protest against Taiwan.
They will allow a protest to go on against our singer, in Hangzhou, when it suited their political interests, effectively boycotted her concert at that time. At the same time ran a propaganda against our businessmen and entertainers, labeled them as Taidu supporters to corce them into concessions. But all the meanwhile, many of us knew that such a protest will not be allowed at the Beijin concert. Which were not allowed, btw.
They will run let the anti-Japanese setiments run high, incited the students to take their actions to the Diaoyu Islands, but after the hidden political goals are accomplished, they will quietly arrest the students as they got deported back to China. Then all the Diaoyu Island protests dispeared from the scene, for the moment at least. It will come up again when they have something else in mind.
At the start of the Iraq War, their media ran an all out anti-America broadcasting, editorials, accusations, specualations and sneering predictions. They must had some pretty wild stuff going on. Even allowed people to sign up to online signature protests. But when those people decided to take it to the streets in Beijin by the thousands, they were quietly dispersed. Then you don’t hear them on streets again.
But do you hear them complain to the government as why they were not allowed to protest against Japan, America, or Taiwan, even thou they were so nationalistic? Or complain about why they were encouraged at some instances but not allowed at other instances?
I acknowledged the observation, but dispprove their logic to group me into their shared collective experience, against the Japanese, when obviously we do NOT share the same experience.
Actually, they have no logic at all, what logic do they have? Like I stated, it will be as ridiculous as a Vietnamese (Hua Ren) friend of mine demanding me to hate the Chinese, based on our share history of being both invaded by the Chinese. What logic is that?
I’ll tell them to their face that they’re being stupid, to add the insults to their stupidity, if they really want to be that upfront with their emotions. But usually I’ll just say “okay, go on, ok” thinking to myself “yeah, whatever.”
Yes, but I usually don’t buy into them, nor believe they are truely nationalistic. The true and great Chinese nationalism was on display, and for the world to see and respect, in 1989 Tiananmen. Unfortuanately many of them had already forgotten, and choose to move on to something else, that is ‘money’ and ‘obedience’. Their nationalism means shit now, doesn’t earn them a penny nor cost them a thing, meaning it’s worthless. They are uncapable of acting on it when it requires a personal sacrafice.
You should rethink, and see how ‘easily’ we accepted the Qing, Japan, and the KMT’s ruling, remember people roused up and fought the Dutch too. See how many people fought and died, against them. It is true that we are usually less than capable to fully fight against the foreign armies, and necessary decisions had to be made in order to cope with the realities.
But people in Taiwan value freedom a lot, more so than the Chinese in mainland, because the difference of our histories. And are more willing to fight for it, believe it or not.
[quote=“steve101”]
But people in Taiwan value freedom a lot, more so than the Chinese in mainland, because the difference of our histories. And are more willing to fight for it, believe it or not.[/quote]Of course. The Taiwanese actually have some idea of what this word means, unlike those in the PRC.
Years ago, I saw a soccer match in Nanjing between a local team and a visiting UK team. I witnessed basically the same reception the Japanese got, minus the political slogans. There was a lot of booing and bottles being flung. However, the most damning moment was when a conflict between two opposing players caused the fans - weilding anything brandishable - to leap the barricade and chase the foreign team off the field!
This has nothing to do with ‘cultural memories’. It has to do with the CCP using education as a means of engendering anti-foreign sentiment and a corresponding nationalistic furvor. It’s the only ideological glue they have left to keep the country together. Yeah, we hate the government and we hate each other, but we hate the foreigners more, so we have to remain united! Sigh.
I think it`s because the draft beer is watered down too much. That along with not being able to hear a conversation on your mobile turns otherwise unassuming people into snarling beasts.
[quote] Once such commonality is the shared experiences of the Chinese by the Japanese during WW2. Now, most people in this Greater China Region would consider Taiwanese people to be a part of this “hua ren” world, Greater China region. So when one part of this “family” is brutalized by the Japanese, it would be really inappropriate for some part of this “family” to support them.
[/quote]
How can this be a commonality whe then experience was so different?
I agrere with those who have said before that ethnic/national identity is formed by common social experience, but in this case (the case of Japanese occupation) we are talkign about something that was experience very differently by Chiense and Taiwanese, so in fact becomes something that shapes different identities between the two peoples.
I disagree strongly with your use of this to argue that Taiwanese have a cultural predispostion to allowing others to invade them. The KMT, and even more so the CCP, used the narrative of resistance to occupation by foreign powers to build up a sense of Chinese identity and to legitimise their rules. Just becuase the people of Taiwan do not share this ideology (at least not as strongly) does not mean they are less likely to resist invasion. In fact, if you look at the history of resistance to governmental occupation (be it Dutch, Qing, Japanese or KMT) by the Taiwanese people, you will see that the truth is quite the opposite.
[quote=“Bu Lai En”][quote] Once such commonality is the shared experiences of the Chinese by the Japanese during WW2. Now, most people in this Greater China Region would consider Taiwanese people to be a part of this “hua ren” world, Greater China region. So when one part of this “family” is brutalized by the Japanese, it would be really inappropriate for some part of this “family” to support them.
[/quote]
How can this be a commonality whe then experience was so different?
I agrere with those who have said before that ethnic/national identity is formed by common social experience, but in this case (the case of Japanese occupation) we are talkign about something that was experience very differently by Chiense and Taiwanese, so in fact becomes something that shapes different identities between the two peoples. [/quote]
Yes, exactly. Hence the difference in attitudes among the “hua ren” toward the Japanese. The Taiwanese tend to have more “loving” attitudes towards them whereas universally, the other “hua ren” have negative to antagonistic attitudes towards the Japanese. This is evidence that can be used to argue that Taiwanese are not Chinese and then it goes towards the maowang line of thinking.
I’m not saying that Taiwanese people have a sign saying “I’m easy! So come beat me!”. I’m saying that the Taiwanese are much more accepting of foreign occupation than most other people’s I’ve ever met or studied. The fact that the Taiwanese can love an occupying force and their culture is to me rather astounding. Most other peoples and nations would not accept that, and, would fiercely reject traces of the occupying force. You see the examples of the former colonial lands. They reject as much as they could the remnants of their colonial masters and create their own separate national identity. Here, Taiwan not only loves Japan but can’t get enough of Japan. So much so that productizing something as “Japanese” makes it almost an instant winner. It’s fascinating to observe and at an intellectual level, hard to fathom.
well, one could argue that the japanese(also know to be nationalistic almost to the extent of racism) love american culture in the same way that taiwan loves japanese culture. and not only did the us occupy japan, we also dropped 2 atomic bombs on them.
also look at the attitudes of most of the commonwealth countries towards britain. even in the us, there’s a certain fondness for british culture and a british accent is considered intelligent and sophisticated.
Which goes along with Machiavelli political belief that if you kick the shit out of your opposition and kill all their leadership, not only will they not dissent, they will come to love and adore you.
So just drop the a-bomb on Taipei and all will be good once more.
On the other hand, I disagree with your characteristization of the British Empire and its former colonies. Those nations struggled mightily against British rule and did not stop resisting until the British left. Independence was the only viable result and they sacrificed to achieve it. I don’t see that Taiwan has that same history vis-a-vis the Japanese. While they had uprisings against the Japanese, the end result was that Japanese assimilation was progressing very nicely. If it weren’t for the US and the end of WW2, Taiwan would be completely Japanese… and we wouldn’t have this TI issue but rather, China vs. Japan
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Which goes along with Machiavelli political belief that if you kick the shit out of your opposition and kill all their leadership, not only will they not dissent, they will come to love and adore you.
So just drop the a-bomb on Taipei and all will be good once more.[/quote]
Or better yet, Beijing and Shanghai.
