Chinese chauvinism in Taiwan

Arts & Sciences Culture & History
1

Despite all the talk about Taiwanese Independence and recent efforts to stress Taiwan’s indigenous culture, this is still something I often encounter even among educated Taiwanese.

Just came back from the pub, where I was hanging out with some locals, all with one or several university degrees. So, we were talking quite merrily, when the conversation somehow went towards “hey, what was Europe like 1000 years ago?”
So, I was telling them to the best of my knowledge that it was quite a backward place back then compared to China. Everybody is nodding their head and then go on to rant about the backwardness of Europe, how wonderful China was betrayed by the barbarians in the 19th century and so on.
Basically they were denying that Europe had any culture to speak of up until maybe 100 years ago, and Europe’s rise was based on fool’s luck and brutality; their views of the US were…well, you probably can imagine.
China on the other hand was the source of all good in the world, all the wonderful inventions, 5000 years of history blabla.

Well, most of the Chinese who came to Taiwan before WW2 were from China’s southern provinces which never really were on the forefront of civilization and culture. But whatever, “we are all Chinese anyway.”

I don’t know about you, but this cultural arrogance really pisses me off.
This “middle kingdom mentality” which looks down upon anything that doesn’t have a “5000 year history” and the simple ignorance of other cultures achievements and virtues.
But if a westerner dares to diss China all hell breaks loose.

Just had to get this off my chest, and maybe some of you can share their feelings on this one, as I think I am definitaly not the only lao wai who gets into heated arguments over this.

2

Yeah 5,000 years, but what have you done lately?

3

Chinese civilization indeed has much to boast about.

But rather than discussing "European " history, or “American” history, I usually focus on “Western” history and culture, which does have early origins. Western civilization, which can also boast of many achievements, originated in the middle east and in Greece and that origin was a long long time ago.

4

Pisses me off too. I recommend The Tyranny of History by William Jenner and quote ad liberatum.

5

[quote=“t.ukyo”]
So, I was telling them to the best of my knowledge that it was quite a backward place back then compared to China. [/quote]

It all depends on what part of Europe you’re talking about and what class of people. If you happened to have been living in Constantinople (capital of the Eastern Roman Empire) and were of the large middle class, things would probably have been pretty damn good. On the other hand, if you’d have been a Chinese peasant (which 90% of the population was and continues to be) in China, life would be pretty much crap.

Most people here have the idea that their ancestors all sat around wearing silk robes and drinking tea with their five wives. It was only because of the “barbarians” that they still aren’t. China by the early 19th century was melting down due to it’s population explosion and inability to develop technology (or an educational system) capable of alleviating it. And there’s a big question as to whether or not anything has really changed, example: look at how most major problems (like floods, SARS, etc) are handled now. Why does anyone think Chinese were fleeing for the greener pastures of South East Asia or Taiwan? Because SEA was so great or because China was so bad?

6

[quote=“blueface666”][quote=“t.ukyo”]
So, I was telling them to the best of my knowledge that it was quite a backward place back then compared to China. [/quote]

It all depends on what part of Europe you’re talking about and what class of people. If you happened to have been living in Constantinople (capital of the Eastern Roman Empire) and were of the large middle class, things would probably have been pretty damn good. On the other hand, if you’d have been a Chinese peasant (which 90% of the population was and continues to be) in China, life would be pretty much crap.

Most people here have the idea that their ancestors all sat around wearing silk robes and drinking tea with their five wives. [/quote]

Precisely. Chinese so-called written “history” is the history of the court and very high ranking mandarins. There is no social history of China going back anything like 2000 years, never mind 5000. And there are gaping huge breaks even in this history. That Jenner book is well worth a read. (ISBN 0-14-014677-6, Penguin)

7

Why bother even arguing with people who aren’t interested in anything more than reinforcing their own (mostly narrow minded) opinions?

Personally I would of attacked the corrupt bueracrats of China, they can’t argue with that one. Mostly though, I just smile, say nothing and nod my head. People have to be ready to listen before you speak. I’ve learned not to argue with irrational/illogical people, or to stop arguing once I become aware that they are irrational/illogical.

Sometimes lies, myths and fallacies are all some people have to make themselves feel better about who and what they are. They look outside themselves for an identity, when the entire time they just had to find out who they are on the inside and open their mind to the possibilities.

CYA
Okami

8

Soddom wrote about China [quote]Yeah 5,000 years, but what have you done lately?[/quote]Um, invent SARS :shock:

9

Good points, esp Blueface’s, but you have to remember that ‘Chinese historical chauvinism’ is a reaction to ‘Western historical chauanism’. It’s a reaction to the old idea that the West ‘invented’ civilisation as we know it today, and all technology, and exported it to all the savages in the rest of the world. At some point some (mostly western) historians said “hey but take a look at these other civilisations, like the Chinese, who actually invented all this technology before us, while were still running around in caves and painting ourselves blue”.

Personally I think it’s just as bullocks (or just as valid) for the ‘Chinese’ today to point to 5000 (or 3000 or 2000) years of civilisation as it is for Americans to point to thousands of years of civilisation starting formt he ancient Greeks (or Egyptians, or Persians).

Brian

10

But you see ‘Chinese historical chauvinism’ also being exhibited towards SouthEast Asians and I strongly doubt it developed after exposure to the West. I’ve read some really racist crap from Chinese in Singapore towards their Malay and Indian neighbors. And I have vivid memories of my former Chinese-Indonesian boss telling me why he never associated with our Indonesian employees, “These people are primitive.” :shock:

interculturalrelations.com/v … fuller.htm

The dominant Chinese, Erlanger (1990) points out, “speak patronizingly of Malay Singaporeans as a backward underclass, progressing slowly but in fact falling farther behind.” Perhaps fearing that the Malays, who have more children than they do and might outnumber them at some point, Chinese have taken measures such as relaxing immigration restrictions to fellow Chinese, especially trying to attract persons from Hong Kong. Another concern comes from Lee Kuan Yew’s appeals for Singapore to not lose its “Asian-ness.” Reciprocally, many Malays feel bitterness about the ruling Chinese, calling them clannish and arrogant. Try these facts: there are only a few token Malays serving as cabinet ministers; the country has taken on campaigns for Confucian ethics and learning Mandarin at the same time it has scrapped compulsory Islamic religious classes and decided to provide free higher education only for poorer Malays instead of for all; job advertisements still ask for racial and religious background; and to date the Singapore Air Force has yet to have any Malay fighter pilots. As in so many areas in Singapore, where something appears one way but is really another (e.g., camera-equipped elevators for the supposed purpose of making sure no one urinates in them, but really to monitor actions and conversations), the quota-regulated housing situation might seem admirable, but Malays consider it politically motivated to discourage concentrations for forging electoral majorities.

Genetically, Malays are naturally larger than the Chinese. Probably the most incredible discrimination against them, by default, is their size. A classic manifestation of this can be witnessed in Singapore’s Education Ministry-directed “Trim and Fit Challenge” program. “4,000 overweight students join in mass exercise” was the front-page article in the government-owned newspaper(2) on May 28, 1996–accompanied by a photo of predominantly Malay students identified as part of the 10% target from the nation’s 51 schools who were publicly encouraged to lose weight. Piling more guilt on the victims, the Straits Times also included an article claiming the parents of these “obese children” were typically “too busy” to help them (Leong, 1996).

More recently, Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew apparently made some disparaging remarks about Johor Bahru, the Malaysian border town, calling it “notorious for shootings, muggings and car-jackings”; the remark was duly repeated in various media (e.g., McDermott, 1997), with his apologies for the slur.

11

I think a lot of it is just a subconscious psychological response to make up for an inferiority complex, brought on by the humiliation wreaked upon China by the Western world over the last 200 years. If you think it’s bad in Taiwan, try talking to people about this kind of stuff in the mainland … the government there has pushed “nationalism” very hard over the past several decades.

But, when the ignorance just gets to be too much for me, I remind them of how the Chinese have continously been routed by outsiders over the years … the Jurchens, Hsiung-nu, Mongolians, Manchus, and then by the West in the 19th century. The Chinese “civilization” had two or three really bright periods, being the Han, Tang, and to some extent the Song Dynasties (in terms of cultural and artistic development, although at this time they also had their butts whooped by “foreigners”).

But, I just tend to ignore it … it’s difficult to overcome ignorance, even if you have hard factual information. I think my knowledge of Chinese history is pretty good, but even the most concrete of evidence will not sway the most ignorant mind.

12

Oh … I forgot to mention … there are tons of examples of “Chinese inventions” or cultural things that aren’t really Chinese at all … they were imported from all kinds of other places … and then the Chinese began to call them their own … the influence of the Mongolians, Manchus, Tibetans, Indians, etc. has been very great over the years in China … they contributed as much to Chinese culture and history as the Chinese did to theirs … my favorite one to mention is Buddhism … I’m continuously amazed at the number of Chinese/Taiwanese who swear up and down that Buddhism is Chinese … :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

13

What was Europe doing a thousand years ago? Building fabulous Romanesque cathedrals like this one started in 1093:

dspace.dial.pipex.com/hugh-pearman/durham8.jpg

Hmm. What does China have from a 1000 years ago that’s still standing today? Oh, right. That wall. Brick on brick piled up 8 metres high! :unamused:

Seriously, if your friends bring this up again, mention that Europe 1000 years ago was discovering new principals of architecture, going on crusades and rediscovering the knowledge of both the east and west, and in general preparing for the biggest explosion of creative activity the world has ever seen - the Renaissance.

14

[quote=“t.ukyo”]we are all Chinese anyway."

I don’t know about you, but this cultural arrogance really pisses me off.
This “middle kingdom mentality” which looks down upon anything that doesn’t have a “5000 year history” and the simple ignorance of other cultures achievements and virtues.
But if a westerner dares to diss China all hell breaks loose.

[/quote]

Instead of coming up with great comebacks and historical facts, why would you want to hang out with people who make you feel like this? Change the subject or get up and leave and find some new bar buddies.

15

Whenever I get that “our culture is 5,000 years old” BS, I always reply, “Yeah, that’s nice. But what have you done lately?”

16

China does not have 5,000 years of history. Much of Chinese “history” is myth and wishful thinking.

First, the earliest writing is from 1200 BC on some tortoise shells. Does it count as writing. Perhaps or stylized pictures perhaps.

So most knowledge of Chinese history is only from 700 BC during the Chou Dynasty. No one can really “prove” anything earlier other than educated surmises, etc. So you are looking at 2700 to 3200 (still nothing to sneeze at).

Surprise surpise though. Chinese “history” is riddled with inaccuracies. Often when emperors died, population, tax figures were revised upwards to make their reign more glorious. These “facts and figures” are now used to buttress claims about the greatness of Chinese “history.”

Suzhou (a city that has never been destroyed) essentially has an outline and appearance of what it would have been at its height during the Song dynasty. The gardens are there (not in as great a number) but essentially you can see what the glories of China were. The bridges are there, etc. etc. The Ming Walls are there in Nanking as well. Impressive. The Great Wall as well as Forbidden City are Ming to Qing.

Chinese history/civilization is impressive. The reason so many discount it in many regards is because of the ego baggage and downright lies of people trying to make more of it than it is. Accept that irritation but also recognize the great accomplishments as well. (Personally, I have never found literature to be one of them. If I hear another local waxing poetic about Tang Dynasty poems, I will… hmmm think of the KTV queens and the types of songs they like about girls crying in the rain smelling flowers while walking through a tampax fresh meadow and you get the idea.). Syrupy, corny, weepy. Ugh. Save me from Chinese poetry.

17

sumerian.org/sumerlex.htm

[quote]Sumerian Lexicon
Version 3.0
by
John A. Halloran

The following lexicon contains 1,255 Sumerian logogram words and 2,511 Sumerian compound words. A logogram is a reading of a cuneiform sign which represents a word in the spoken language. Sumerian scribes invented the practice of writing in cuneiform on clay tablets sometime around 3400 B.C. in the Uruk/Warka region in the south of ancient Iraq. [The etymology of ‘Iraq’ may come from this region, biblical Erech. Medieval Arabic sources used the name ‘Iraq’ as a geographical term for the area in the south and center of the modern republic.] The Sumerian language spoken by the inventors of writing is known to us through a large body of texts and through bilingual cuneiform dictionaries of Sumerian and Akkadian, the language of their Semitic successors, to which Sumerian is not related. These bilingual dictionaries date from the Old Babylonian period (1800-1600 B.C.), by which time Sumerian had ceased to be spoken, except by the scribes. The earliest and most important words in Sumerian had their own cuneiform signs, whose origins were pictographic, making an initial repertoire of about a thousand signs or logograms. Beyond these words, two-thirds of this lexicon now consists of words that are transparent compounds of separate logogram words. I have greatly expanded the section containing compounds in this version, but I know that many more compound words could be added.
[/quote]
This civilization is also as old. I don’t think how long a civilization or history is a measure of how great a race is. But the way I see it, how much that civilization contributes to humanity and to the prosperity of its people is a good standard to measure how great the people is.

ax