Chinese Learning Software

Language Learning Chinese
41

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Well, after some consideration, I believe I’ll probably buy Rosetta Stone.

(5) ironlady and buttercup weren’t enamored by the program (though I don’t believe either of them used the Mandarin program very much)[/quote]

Well, no, I’ve only had a look over the Mandarin RS program in an airport kiosk. But in that five minutes, I saw sentences that were stilted or wrong. I don’t recall the specifics, and they may have been altered by now, but the fact that RS forces all languages into the mold it created for (probably) Spanish (or similar, fairly-like-English languages) gives me pause to begin with. It’s a disaster in Mohawk (the language for which I’m most familiar with RS). And for all languages, IMHO you should download the English transcript so that you can match up the sentences and know for sure what is being said.

Having said that, I think RS is probably one of the best things out there at this moment to learn languages. (Check back in a year or so, and I hope to have a different answer for you, if the developer does what he says he’s going to do for us.) RS is what they like to call “dynamic immersion”, which is still a form of linguistic waterboarding due to the fact it is not 100% comprehensible. I prefer what I like to call “optimized immersion”, which means total comprehension of what’s going on at all times as a foundation for acquisition. Doing that usually requires some use of a native or common language, and that limits the commercialization potential for a product, which is probably one of the reasons behind RS’s approach (that, and the fact that it sounds good to say “no English!” even if it isn’t the optimal way to communicate meaning).

42

I purchased Rosetta Stone over CNY, installed it on my computer yesterday, and finally did the first lesson this morning, for about an hour or so and I am extremely excited about it. At roughly US$500 it was expensive, but I don’t give a damn; I am finally determined to learn the damned language, period, whatever the cost, so long as I’ve got a reasonable means of instruction. I think this’ll be an integral part of my success. :slight_smile:

Seems to me that the two most important factors about any instruction are (1) is interesting enough to hold your attention and (2) does it effectively convey the information so that the student learns it. For me, RS scores high on number 1. It’s got a very attractive interface (if that’s what one calls it), with lots of attractive, brightly colored photos that are used for its immersion method, with generally 2 to 4 photos shown at a time, along with the pinyin or Chinese characters. It’s pleasant to look at and the instruction proceeds in a smooth, methodical manner.

I believe it should excel at number 2, also. As I mentioned, it’s immersion; not a single word of English. Instead, you’re confronted with a few photos and a word or two describing each one and one is then required to repeat the word (it has voice recognition software and tells you when you’re wrong) and click on the appropriate photos or words. It’s all very logical and seems to progress nicely to ever more complicated ideas and language structures.

So, I’m stoked. Day one under my belt. I now intend to do a lesson (or an hour) a day until I finish the course. (I bought parts 1, 2 and 3; not sure how long that will take). I’ll keep you posted. :thumbsup:

43

Good stuff, MT! I think Rosetta Stone is great (just wish they had Taiwan Mandarin as well as that China Mandarin :wink: ).

44

As you know, they do allow you to select either simplified or traditional characters. (Of course, I chose traditional.)

45

MT, I used the Thai one, which was shit. There was no way to learn to read, using it, other than memorising the shapes. Would work OK, perhaps with a language with the same alphabet as yours, and more similarities overall. The one system for evey language thing doesn’t really work too well, IMO, as ironlady says. It’s a mess, for non-Euro, non Roman alphabet languages. A beginner’s German ‘syllabus’, for want of a better word, is very different from a Cambodian syllabus, but RS doesn’t do that - they just whack all these square languages through the round holes of the software limitations.

It’s just nice marketing - ‘learn how children learn!’. That isn’t the process that adults use to acquire language, though.

Any sample materials always show the beginner stuff, so when learners are successful with that (they’d be successful with almost anything, at beginner level), they sign up.

46

Adults do use the same process as children to acquire new languages – the brain does things the same way throughout life, that’s biology – but adults can be helped in their quest by learning about the language in a principled manner, and by having their immersion optimized. Kids can work at language 24/7; adults cannot. The curriculum designer needs to take that into consideration to produce a class or curriculum that gives the adult brain what it needs to acquire while still stroking the adult psyche and keeping it comfortable about its “adultness”.

Aside from theoretical issues, though, the weakness with RS is that it is nothing more than a glorified multimedia flashcard system – and one where the meanings are not made clear. Separate utterances, link to picture. No indication of what the utterances really mean – so if your guess happens to be wrong, you’re “learning” wrong language.

They’ve got one hell of an ad campaign going, though. I opened up a package from Barnes & Noble yesterday and what fell out (aside from my new dictionary) but a RS ad. Arrrrgh.

47

[quote=“ironlady”]Adults do use the same process as children to acquire new languages – the brain does things the same way throughout life, that’s biology – but adults can be helped in their quest by learning about the language in a principled manner, and by having their immersion optimized. Kids can work at language 24/7; adults cannot. The curriculum designer needs to take that into consideration to produce a class or curriculum that gives the adult brain what it needs to acquire while still stroking the adult psyche and keeping it comfortable about its “adultness”.
[/quote]

So … different, then? :wink:

48

I came accross copies of RS Mandarin I and II some time back. I thought it was an interesting little program and not a bad way to supplement your studies (a bit on the simple side for someone who’s been here for any length of time, though). It seemed to consist of a native speaker speaking phrases and a set of pictures from which the user is to select the correct one. Curious.

As opposed to what the more academic types are saying about the methodology, I believe whatever materials or methods that appeal to a student are likely to positively affect his/her motivation. If you like RS, it is more likely that you will stick with it and get further in you studies than you might have without it. So, congratulations on your purchase and good luck.

PS. The “Taiwan Mandarin” comment made earlier does not refer to simplified or traditional characters. RS teaches phrases, vocab and pronunciation more often used in mainland China. Not that you wouldn’t be understood if you spoke here in the way modeled by RS. It’s just that you may be thought as a little quaint.

49

[quote=“Toasty”]
PS. The “Taiwan Mandarin” comment made earlier does not refer to simplified or traditional characters. RS teaches phrases, vocab and pronunciation more often used in mainland China. Not that you wouldn’t be understood if you spoke here in the way modeled by RS. It’s just that you may be thought as a little quaint.[/quote]

I always wonder how important this is. For example, I learned British English in school, with all the “flat”, „autumn“ stuff etc. I also had to write “colour”.

But now I use “apartment”, “autumn” and “color”. Ok, I know that I should stick to one version (depending on the audience), but I came across source material from both countries so I invevitably mixed some of it.
I wonder if this will be any different in Chinese? Is it really important in the beginning to pay attention to this small differences?

Isn’t it more like some kind of fine-tuning which is good for afterwords?

50

Thanks. I agree. Of course I have the utmost respect for ironlady. I’m sure it would be hard to find a mandarin teacher anywhere who is as good as her. And I suspect buttercup is also a whiz at Chinese. BUT, I believe motivation is THE most important factor. If a person doesn’t want to go to class or crack open the books for whatever reason, they won’t learn. It takes consistent dedication and committment. So far, for me, it appears that RS will be more convenient, comfortable and pleasant than most other classes, tutors, books, flashcards and other tools I’ve used, so I’m hopeful it will be easier for me to stick with it and put in the hours.

After that, I believe the academics when they say they perceive flaws in the system (it’s not perfect), but I’m confident it will be good enough that if I do stick with it regularly for a prolonged period (which I’ve had trouble doing with so many other systems) I should make very substantial progress. We’ll see.

I now understand that, after I asked my wife about something this morning and she indicated it was a mainland thing. I’m sorry about that fact – I’d rather learn Taiwan mandarin too – but at least I don’t think it’ll be anywhere near as bad as pimsleur which I dropped fairly quickly, despite my serious intent to persevere, because I found the Beijinghwa so infuriating.

51

Yeah, I knew the RS haters would come out.

Sod 'em :slight_smile:

RS is not a catch-all complete program. Only a fool would think that. And I honestly think that it’s the single best tool for learning a language that you could have. Better than any textbook. And it’s much more fun, which is VERY important.

52

[quote=“Hellstorm”][quote=“Toasty”]
PS. The “Taiwan Mandarin” comment made earlier does not refer to simplified or traditional characters. RS teaches phrases, vocab and pronunciation more often used in mainland China. Not that you wouldn’t be understood if you spoke here in the way modeled by RS. It’s just that you may be thought as a little quaint.[/quote]

I always wonder how important this is. For example, I learned British English in school, with all the “flat”, „autumn“ stuff etc. I also had to write “colour”.

But now I use “apartment”, “autumn” and “color”. Ok, I know that this is maybe not really good to mix it, but I came across source material from both countries so that I invevitably mixed some of it.
I wonder if this will be any different in Chinese? Is it really important in the beginning to pay attention to this small differences?

Isn’t it more like some kind of fine-tuning which is good for afterwords?[/quote]

Actually, the British English/ so-called American English comparison is a good way to look at the issue. It isn’t a big difference in the end and native speakers will handle it easily. Learners, however, will be somewhat confused at first when locals don’t use the same words they learned in their studies or that when they do, they use a pronunciation that differs from the one they’ve practiced. Rather like studying British public school pronunciation while living in New York.

53

[quote=“Bu Lai En”]Yeah, I knew the RS haters would come out.

Sod 'em :slight_smile:

RS is not a catch-all complete program. Only a fool would think that. And I honestly think that it’s the single best tool for learning a language that you could have. Better than any textbook. And it’s much more fun, which is VERY important.[/quote]

So…you would buy a set of really pretty flash cards for $500, without knowing what some of them meant?

54

[quote=“ironlady”][quote=“Bu Lai En”]Yeah, I knew the RS haters would come out.

Sod 'em :slight_smile:

RS is not a catch-all complete program. Only a fool would think that. And I honestly think that it’s the single best tool for learning a language that you could have. Better than any textbook. And it’s much more fun, which is VERY important.[/quote]

So…you would buy a set of really pretty flash cards for $500, without knowing what some of them meant?[/quote]

You discover what things “meant” in RS by hearing the words/phrases, selecting the correct pictures and repeating. Is it the best or only way to learn? Of course not. However, MT lives in a Chinese-speaking environment and is married to a Chinese-speaking spouse. He can make up for any supposed pedagogical weaknesses/shortcomings in the program easily.

500 bucks ain’t chump change, but it also won’t buy you the taj mahal either. If the program gives MT the confidence and motivation to improve his Chinese, then it’s a bargain.

55

I never had a problem knowing what a word on Rosetta Stone meant. (Same can’t be said of teachers and textbooks).

I never said it wasn’t perfect (or cheap). I said it was the best single tool for learning languages I’ve seen.

56

:laughing: Didn’t mean to give the impression that I was pouring scorn on those who use it and find it effective.

I was just giving a professional opinion, based on my own experiences of learning and teaching. As ironlady points out, it’s expensive for what it is - a flashcard program of material that is rather dubiously organised. I managed to acquire the, erm, ‘free’ version.

Enjoyment and motivation are also important. Flashing pictures annoy the shit out of me. The novelty wore off in about half an hour. I’m a book-monster.

Just remember, the purpose of educational publishing is to sell you products, not to educate you. That’s just a nice side effect, sometimes.

57

Same here, but I admit I haven’t even looked at it yet. I don’t believe it will work for me because you need to dedicate the time in front of a computer on a daily basis to make it most effective. It’s not that I don’t have the computer time. Far from it, I spend a lot of time in front of the computer as it is, and adding another hour a day is impractical. That’s really the key here.

In needs to work in the scope of your daily routine.

For me, the iPhone was the thing that has really started me turning the corner. It brings a lot of things together. And it’s portable. I commute to NYC 2-3 days a week, which gives me 3.5 hours of travel time each of those days. I am also a competitive biker, so I spend upwards of 12-16 hours on a road bike on a weekly basis this time of year. For me, to maximize my learning, having the portable device is priceless.

In terms of the actual software, I have both Pimsleur and CLO (Chinese Learn Online) mp3s on it, and I listen to them both. But if I had to choose 1 it would undoubtedly be CLO as noted by Adam_CLO earlier in the thread. My wife was born in Taiwan, and she’s drilled it into my head that nar, zher, diar, etc are, how might you say it, less than graceful ways to speak the language. So I now have an aversion to that, for better or worse.

I’ve also tried another piece of software years ago that I do not recall the name of, as well as ChinesePod. The first was somewhat like Pimsleur, and ChinesePod was easy enough to listen but only slightly more advanced than the level Dora teaches Spanish in her shows. The show seemed a social gathering first, Chinese lessons second.

Adding on to the iPhone idea, iFlipr (flashcards) and Iced free Chinese dictionary are ones I use daily. But if you’re not going to be hands on, neither will work much. I will use the dictionary to clarify words in the lesson if I’m on the train, and add them to the word list. Later I can add them to the iFlipr list, where I have active and review word lists. When I’m at work, maybe in the elevator or waiting for the microwave or in a meeting I have no desire to be in, I can run through some of the words for review. You can have images or text - I’m a pinyin user so I’ll put in new words as pinyin/English pairs and move words from active to practice or delete words from practice when they become too remedial.

I also plug my iPhone in daily and rotate my playlists. I have a basic list for level 1, 2, 3, etc. But I also have review lists for lessons that don’t stick, as well as a bike list that changes every time I go for a ride. I’ll mix in a Pimsleur (30 minutes of repetition, pretty easy comparatively) and maybe 1 new CLO lesson, a few random CLO lessons, some small clips of short conversation, single word audio clips, as well as music. Sometimes I script it from top to bottom, sometimes I let it go random.

In addition to those mentioned here, there are also apps for Taiwan Radio, Chinese character flashcards (from the CLO people), Bigram Lite (characters), and AccelaStudy (which I admit I use once in a blue moon but I’m adding for the sake of completeness). Then getting really tangential, there’s Tapatalk (which is a message board reader where I read most of this forum from) and NetNewsWire (an RSS reader). And finally, there is a free version of the Kanxi Lai Le if you really want to take it to some…other…level.

I believe there is no real “out of the box” solution, unless the box is a one-way ticket to rural Taiwan/China or a Chinese-only speaking spouse. I think you need to assemble various pieces to get the the proverbial holy land. Most of the people on this forum have resources beyond what I do, living in Taiwan and all. So it may not be necessary to go this deep into any routine. But couple this with a society that surrounds you with the language and I think you can find a solution that works best for you. I would, of course, try not to immerse yourself in too many taxis though, lest you start ranting “China is dog!” to your friends and colleagues. :slight_smile:

HTH in some way.

58

Ain’t that the truth! :bravo:

What irritates me about RS most is their overbearing, constant, exaggerated advertising. You’re not in the US, so you don’t get it all the time, but when I turn on the radio in the car, I get RS ads. When I open up a package with a book I ordered, an RS ad falls out. When I watch television, I see RS ads. Flying somewhere? They’re in the airports – a huge number of them. They’re EVERYWHERE. The claims the program makes about immersion are just not true, full stop. Immersion is NOT the best way to learn a language, and I think there are dozens if not hundreds of long-term Taiwan residents who can attest to that. The problem is that the enormous exposure of these ads is “teaching” people in the US that immersion is the way to go, and then we’re getting all these ambitious “immersion language programs” sprouting up, which are never going to get anyone to speak a language but which cost a lot of money.

59

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]I purchased Rosetta Stone over CNY, installed it on my computer yesterday, and finally did the first lesson this morning, for about an hour or so and I am extremely excited about it. At roughly US$500 it was expensive, but I don’t give a damn; I am finally determined to learn the damned language, period, whatever the cost, so long as I’ve got a reasonable means of instruction. I think this’ll be an integral part of my success. :slight_smile:

Seems to me that the two most important factors about any instruction are (1) is interesting enough to hold your attention and (2) does it effectively convey the information so that the student learns it. For me, RS scores high on number 1. It’s got a very attractive interface (if that’s what one calls it), with lots of attractive, brightly colored photos that are used for its immersion method, with generally 2 to 4 photos shown at a time, along with the pinyin or Chinese characters. It’s pleasant to look at and the instruction proceeds in a smooth, methodical manner.

I believe it should excel at number 2, also. As I mentioned, it’s immersion; not a single word of English. Instead, you’re confronted with a few photos and a word or two describing each one and one is then required to repeat the word (it has voice recognition software and tells you when you’re wrong) and click on the appropriate photos or words. It’s all very logical and seems to progress nicely to ever more complicated ideas and language structures.

So, I’m stoked. Day one under my belt. I now intend to do a lesson (or an hour) a day until I finish the course. (I bought parts 1, 2 and 3; not sure how long that will take). I’ll keep you posted. :thumbsup:[/quote]Yes, Rosetta Stone is pretty good if you persevere with it. Little and often is the key, as it can feel a bit tedious if you do too much in one go.

As I’ve posted before, I think the way to get the most out of it is to use it alongside a Pinyin to English dictionary. So when an unfamiliar word comes up, you guess the meaning based on the context first, and then check it immediately afterwards in the dictionary. (There is a research basis for doing those steps in that order. I’ll paste a bunch of references if anyone’s interested.)

60

[quote=“Adam_CLO”]Hi MT (and others),

I’ve created my own podcast course here in Taiwan here that I obviously stand behind. The course starts with lesson one for absolute beginners. Each lesson then continues from there and becomes progressively harder. Early lessons are taught entirely in English, while later lessons slowly replace the English with Chinese (that has been previously taught). This way you’re constantly forced to recall Chinese that was taught in the past.

There are currently 420 lessons, with the latest ones taught almost entirely in Chinese. I’d say it’s at an intermediate level at the moment. Some of the advantages of this format include:

a. Most emphasis on listening skills, followed by reading, writing and then speaking. As you’re in Taiwan, you can practice what you learn with your tutor or others around you.
b. Created in Taiwan, so all the speakers, vocabulary and pronunciation have a Taiwanese edge.
c. On average, each lesson’s difficulty only goes up slightly, which is the key. I believe one of the keys to learning any language is constantly giving your brain input that is only slightly harder than what you already know. That is what we’ve been able to create here.

The lessons on the site are free, while the online tools (review audio, exercises, flashcards etc.) require a subscription, starting off at around $650 NT per month. I recommend you try out the free lessons first to see if they interest you.

Feel free to post any feedback here, or PM me for more info.

Adam[/quote]
I was just looking at your Chinese Learn Online website, and although it’s similar in a way to Chinesepod, I liked your layout and that the Chinese girl is from Taiwan. I was also looking at the Providence Chinese site that has listening exercises etc for the Practical Audio Visual series and I loved looking at the stuff and trying some of them out (albeit only the Lesson 12 stuff from your link in your signature).
The CLO stuff is good for listening practice, but I liked the other site because I’ve been using the Practical Audio Visual series for a long time now. I have a private teacher once a week, so it would be nice to spend time for each lesson reviewing and learning from that site. Are they linked (if you subscribe to the CLO site do you also get access to the Providence site or are they separate?

Edit: I loved the listening exercise where you click on the character after the lady says it. I was frantically trying to find each one before I lost any points! Pretty cool.

On another note, I bought the 3000 Chinese character CD set and I haven’t been all that impressed with it…