I see in today’s Taipei Times that Education Minister Du Zhengsheng (杜正勝) wants Chinese Mandarin “As spoken locally” to be referred to as “Taiwanese”, and Taiwanese to be referred to as the national language, or guoyu, which is what is used to refer to Mandarin nowadays.
I have a few questions:
1.Is he nuts?
2.Doesn’t he have more important things to do?
3.What is Chinese Mandarin (as spoken locally)? What does that mean? Does this mean that the current phonetic system taught in schools (zhuyinfuhao) will be modified or abandoned? With what standard does he wish to replace Chinese Mandarin?
4.Why Chinese Mandarin? Is it to avoid confusion with Jamaican Mandarin, Basque Mandarin, or Celtic Mandarin?
Just more proof that you can give some people a Mercedes and a title but you can’t stop 'em from being ignorant hayseeds. You can even give 'em an education but you can’t make 'em remember any of it.
Oh, and isn’t this the genius Chen replaced the last minister with after he didn’t wholeheartedly support the “tongyong” fiasco? I think his appointment as minister of education can be found in the dictionary under “irony”.
As far as I can tell, he’s trying to talk his way out of the mess created by the premier’s recent comments on national/official language(s). That Du isn’t succeeding isn’t entirely his fault. A lot of people deserve blame for this, including in previous administrations, which were of course the ones to suppress the languages of the people of Taiwan and impose Mandarin upon them.
For the most part, the Chen administration has chosen to adopt window dressing when it comes to the languages of Taiwan other than Mandarin. That they are taught at all is significant psychologically, which is an important first step from a cultural standpoint and may help preserve them. But for the most part the approach has been so muddled and so astonishingly slow as to prevent any real progress. There has been a real failure of imagination and ambition.
What is there to read in these languages beyond the elementary level? For that matter, where are the systems in which to read them? We have Hakka TV – but with Mandarin subtitles. We have Aboriginal TV – but with Mandarin subtitles. When will children here be able to go to the theater and have the choice of seeing the latest foreign cartoons dubbed into Taiwanese? Where are the government websites in these languages? We have a Ministry of Education that seven years into the DPP administration is still dicking around with the basic question of how to write Taiwanese. (A set of three hundred characters is to be released next month.) Pathetic.
[quote=“Maoman”]I see in today’s Taipei Times that Education Minister Du Zhengsheng (杜正勝) wants Chinese Mandarin “As spoken locally” to be referred to as “Taiwanese”, and Taiwanese to be referred to as the national language, or guoyu, which is what is used to refer to Mandarin nowadays.
I have a few questions:
1.Is he nuts?
2.Doesn’t he have more important things to do?
3.What is Chinese Mandarin (as spoken locally)? What does that mean? Does this mean that the current phonetic system taught in schools (zhuyinfuhao) will be modified or abandoned? With what standard does he wish to replace Chinese Mandarin?
4.Why Chinese Mandarin? Is it to avoid confusion with Jamaican Mandarin, Basque Mandarin, or Celtic Mandarin?[/quote]
Yes of course, Celtic Mandarin is substantially different. Some people call it French
TAiwanese live on a small island that just SEEMS like a huge place. And in order to not be ignorred by the rest of the world, often resort to wierd rulings and other happenings just to keep things lively
By your own admission, you speak about 12 words of Mandarin, despite living here for over 20 years and married to a Taiwanese wife.
People in glass houses shouldn’t toss stones.
What right do you have to mock Taiwanese for being “ignorant”? I would expect for over 3 decades in a country, you would at least be able to speak the language. That’s inexcusable ignorance no matter how you try to spin it with your sputtering excuses.
A reasonable criticism, not a personal attack. It annoys me how many ex-pats in the Taiwan live like it’s 1901 and their pink-gin King Edward White Man’s Burden colonial outpost, they don’t have to learn the language or ways of the bloody savages.
And I’m sure you speak the Queen’s English perfectly, proud Scotsman.
By your own admission, you speak about 12 words of Mandarin, despite living here for over 20 years and married to a Taiwanese wife.
People in glass houses shouldn’t toss stones.
What right do you have to mock Taiwanese for being “ignorant”? I would expect for over 3 decades in a country, you would at least be able to speak the language. That’s inexcusable ignorance no matter how you try to spin it with your sputtering excuses.
A reasonable criticism, not a personal attack. It annoys me how many ex-pats in the Taiwan live like it’s 1901 and their pink-gin King Edward White Man’s Burden colonial outpost, they don’t have to learn the language or ways of the bloody savages.
And I’m sure you speak the Queen’s English perfectly, proud Scotsman.[/quote]
I agree with Sandman on this 100%. Except I would have said “You can make them Minister of Education but you can’t make them exercise any such thing.”
Now, feel free to criticize my Chinese, the length of time I’ve been here and other personal attacks in your response.
I apologize to Sandman for that unwarranted personal attack. If you look at some of my other posts I made around that same time period, I wasn’t exactly in a happy frame of mind. I was lashing out like a bull in china shop at whatever target was around for verbal abuse. I was being a complete dick and I apologize for it.
[quote=“tommy525”]haha , just waiting for the sandman’s blood pressure to go up to MAx ON THIS one
(quentin did equate 20 years to 3 decades tho, minor error of time keeping there)[/quote]
Quentin knows not a jot about me save what I write on here. My blood pressure is fine. I can’t play football, either, as it happens, but I do believe I’m allowed to criticize professional players, despite this.
If Quentin wasn’t such a blithering idiot, he’d no doubt realize the stupidity of his weird analogy. I don’t speak Russian, either, Sherlock. Does that mean I’m not allowed to criticise Putin?
And following someone around the boards to post like a little whining girl about them is against the site rules, by the way.
And I … er… posted the above before reading until the end of the thread. Sorry Quentin. You’re not blithering. Not all the time, at least.
How would you guys feel if they change Guoyu to “Beijinghua” and Taiwanese to “Guoyu.” If Taiwan is going to become an independent nation, with a distinct identity from China, it makes sense for them to distinguish themselves linguistically as well. I realize this may not be practical, and of course Minnan is spoken in southern Fujian, but making Minnan the national language would definitely set Taiwan apart from China.
Not saying I think this is a good idea, I just want to get your opinions.
What if the Hakka and aboriginal population disgree, claiming that their mother tongue should become the new “guoyu” or “putonghua”
Beijinghua is actually a dialect and not Mandarin.
I guess you can make a Taipeihua and a Tainanhua. It would be the first time I’ve ever heard of a political motivation to create a whole new spoken language just for the sake of independence.
Sounds half bake if you ask me.
You don’t see the US and Oz trying to re-label “English”
There is already a neutral term for Mandarin - as used officially in Singapore and by various DPPers - Huáyŭ (華語). No need to call it Beijinghua or whatever. It seems more logical to suggest that, officially at least, no one language be called Guoyu.
Of course, the way people talk about it on the street is not going to change based on what some government minister has to say. Most people will still call Mandarin Guoyu and Taiwanese Taiyu, except for Waishengren/the occasional Hakka who will still call it Minnanyu.
Anyhow, I don’t get why there has to be an official language at all. The US doesn’t have one. The UK doesn’t have one. I know, I know, it’s politics - a realm generally bereft of common sense.
