Climate Change V - More Evidence of Fraud

You missed out this part:

  • the scientists believe further rises in sea levels pose a significant danger to the livelihoods of people living in Tuvalu, Kiribati and the Federated States of Micronesia.

  • One scientist in Kiribati said that people should not be lulled into thinking that inundation and coastal erosion were not a major threat

You are not misreading it, you are blatantly misrepresenting it. Could you list all the scientists who said that these islands were ‘disappearing already’?

This was already covered in extensive detail in the previous discussion, to which I have already linked.

Simple, you are ignoring what is actually being said. You point to the fact that scientists say these islands are not sinking, and advance this as evidence that global warming is not taking place, that sea levels are not rising, and that people on these islands are in no danger from rising sea levels. You completely fail to address the fact that the scientists themselves note that sea levels are rising, that they are rising due to global warming, and that the people on these islands are in danger from rising sea levels.

I said no such thing.

That was not my response to your question as to whether or not this would lead to any benefit. That was my response to your question as to what benefits were being aimed for.

If you read more, you will know. For now, we’re done. You have misrepresented your own sources repeatedly, you have made repeated false claims about what your sources say and what I have said (even after being corrected more than once), you have failed to answer any of my questions, you have failed to address any of the science whatsoever, and you have made it clear you have no intention of seeking the facts of the matter. When this changes, let me know.

So are you saying it was not offered to nations like Tuvalu or that because it was pledged and therefore not actual that it does not make any difference to the argument?

I have already posted articles stating that sea levels are not rising. Others show sea levels rising because of El Nino thermal effects or because of tectonic subsidence. Why am I misreading this to show that these islands are not sinking NOW? such and such poses a threat and the islands are still in danger if x y or z. That is not what climate alarmists are saying. You are misrepresenting this. They are saying the danger is now and is ALREADY occurring. Apparently it is NOT already occurring for whatever reason your dear heart would like to choose. The islands are NOT sinking. The alarmists are wrong. Your lame-ass response is to say but… they could still face a threat? that is your defense of the alarmist position. They have been lying for 30 years and no sinking but it COULD happen so we should STILL believe them? Right… and you want to discuss SCIENCE! You do not want to discuss any such thing. You are fervently and zealously religious. Take it all on faith. If you don’t you will be damned. I scoff at your religion and your beliefs. I assure you that by their very definition they make a meaningless use of your use of the word science. Bah! :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: More ahem science for you… love Fred :slight_smile: hahahaha

[quote]SEA LEVEL IN THE SOUTHWEST PACIFIC IS STABLE
Cliff OLLIER
School of Earth and Environment, The University of Western Australia, WA 6009, Australia
cliffol@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
Abstract: Graphs of sea level for twelve locations in the southwest Pacific show stable sea level for about ten years over
the region. The data are compared with results from elsewhere, all of which suggest that any rise of global sea level is
negligible. The Darwin theory of coral formation, and subsidence ideas for guyots would suggest that we should see
more land subsidence, and apparent sea level rise, than is actually occurring. Sea level studies have not been carried out
for very long, but they can indicate major tectonic components such as isostatic rebound in Scandinavia. Attempts to
manipulate the data by modelling to show alarming rates of sea level rise (associated with alleged global warming) are not
supported by primary regional or global data. Even those places frequently said to be in grave danger of drowning, such
as the Maldives, Tuvalu and Holland, appear to be safe.
Keywords: sea level, islands, Pacific, modelling, climate alarm, tectonics
If you ask Google for information on sea level you get pages of claims that the Pacific islands are sinking in
the sea. If you Google “Tuvalu” you will get messages of impending doom. And yet the best factual data
available show that the islands, including Tuvalu, are not sinking. Of course the Climate Alarmists will keep
this true information out of the literature as long as they can.
A tide gauge to measure sea level was in existence at Tuvalu since 1977, run by the University of Hawaii. It
showed a negligible increase of only 0.07 mm per year over two decades. Between 1995 and 1999 it fell 3
mm. The gauge was closed in 1999. A new installation was set up by the Australian Bureau of Meteorology’s
National Tidal Centre in 1991, and was run by Flinders University of Adelaide. Gauges are located on many
islands, as shown in Figure 1. They used modern sophisticated equipment called SEAFRAME (Sea Level Fine
Resolution Acoustic Measuring Equipment) shown diagrammatically in Figure 2. The sea enters a vertical
cylinder whose position is kept constant by Global Positioning, and the sea level is obtained by bouncing
sound waves off the surface and calculating how long it takes. It is all recorded automatically and transmitted
to Australia.
The results are shown in Figure 3. The level was disturbed near the beginning because of the effects of ENSO
(El niňo-Southern Oscillation, often simplified to El niňo), but since about 2001 there has been no significant
change in sea level for any of the islands studied, including Tuvalu.
Since all the stations shown in Figure1 show no change in sea level, it also shows no differential tectonic
movement between the stations. Of course the time involved is trivial compared with geological time, but the
results suggest that the technique might have many more significant uses, especially in tectonically active
coasts such as parts of Indonesia or California. If we had global cover we might be able to distinguish regions
of differential tectonic movement. It would also be valuable to have such stations in other controversial ‘hot
spots’ of climate alarm, such as the Maldives. One might have hoped that the number of stations would
rapidly increase. Unfortunately, the stations were set up to demonstrate rising sea levels. When they so clearly
failed to do so, the operation was apparently closed down.
New Concepts in Global Tectonics Newsletter, no. 51, June, 2009
36
Figure 1. The sites of sea level monitoring stations.
Figure 2. The main features of SEAFRAME sea level measuring equipment
New Concepts in Global Tectonics Newsletter, no. 51, June, 2009
37
Explaining it away
The results shown in Figure 3 have never been published in a “peer reviewed” journal. They are only available
on the Australian Bureau of Meteorology website in a series of Monthly Reports that are “Untitled”. See the
latest at: bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO60101/IDO60101.200809.pdf
Vincent Gray explained in his newsletter, NZCLIMATE AND ENVIRO TRUTH NO 181 13th August 2008,
that something had to be done to maintain rising sea level alarm, and it was done by in a paper by John R
Hunter at: staff.acecrc.org.au/~johunter/tuvalu.pdf
Hunter first applies a linear regression to the chart for Tuvalu. He gets -1.0±13.7 mm/yr so Tuvalu is actually
rising! The inaccuracy is entirely due to the ENSO rubbish at the beginning. He then tries to incorporate old
measurements made with inferior equipment and attempts to correct for positioning errors. He gets a
“cautious” estimate for Tuvalu of 0.8±1.9 mm/yr. He then tries to remove ENSO to his own satisfaction, and
now his “less cautious” estimate is 1.2 ± 0.8 mm/yr.
Does this show the island is rising? Just look at the inaccuracy. The commonsense interpretation of Figure 3 is
surely that Tuvalu, and 11 other Pacific Islands, are not sinking over the time span concerned. The sea level is
virtually constant.
Figure 3. Sea level records for the stations of Figure 1 to September 2006
New Concepts in Global Tectonics Newsletter, no. 51, June, 2009
38
Similar manipulation of sea level data is reported in Church et al. (2006) who consider the tropical Pacific and
Indian Ocean islands. Their best estimate for sea level rise at Tuvalu is 2 ± 1 mm/yr from 1950-2001. They
wrote “The analysis clearly indicates that sea-level in this region is rising.” Does this square with simple
observation of the data in Figure 3? They further comment: “We expect that the continued and increasing rate
of sea-level rise and any resulting increase in the frequency or intensity of extreme-sea-level events will cause
serious problems for the inhabitants of some of these islands during the 21st century.” The data of Figure 3
simply do not support this excessive alarmism.
Sea level in other places
A near stability or very small rise seems to be the common finding of researchers who are not in the IPCC/
CSIRO network. Mörner, for example, has shown in many papers (see references) that sea level is stable in
many parts of the world. He produced a summary in the booklet The Greatest Lie Ever Told (see review in
NCGT 44, 2007). Church et al. (2006) are very critical of Mörner, claiming he has not presented evidence, but
he certainly provided it in detail in his paper of 2007. The new sea level curve of the Maldives for the past
2,600 years is depicted in Figure 4. It is based on morphology, stratigraphy, biology and archaeology
supported by extensive C14 dating. Over 5,000 years there have been a number of rapid ‘spikes’ of 60 – 100
cm that are of local or regional dimensions. Mörner, Tooley and Possnert (2004) noted that: “All over the
Maldives there is evidence of a sub–recent sea level some 20 cm higher than the present one. In the 1970s, sea
level fell to its present position.” (my italics).
Figure 4. The new sea level curve of the Maldives (simplified after Morner, 2007). Horizontal axis in years: vertical axis
in metres.
You can get sea level data for the United States and a limited number of other countries, from satellite
imagery, on: www.tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends.html
The following table shows results I selected from several States:
New Concepts in Global Tectonics Newsletter, no. 51, June, 2009
39


State rise (mm)


Oregon 2.72 ± 1.03
California 2.06 ± 0.20
Maine 1.62 ± 0.17
New York 2.77 ± 0.09
Pennsylvania 2.79 ± 0.2
Georgia 2.98 ± 0.33
Florida 2.39 ± 0.43
Hawaii 1.5 ± 0.25


There is considerable variation even within each state, which shows that the figures need to be treated with
caution. This is illustrated by figures from different sites in Virginia.


Kiptopeke 3.48 ± 0.42
Colonial Beach 4.78 ± 1.21
Lewisetta 4.97 ± 1.03
Gloucester Point 3.81 ± 0.47
Sewells Point 4.44 ± 0.27
Portsmouth 3.76 ± 0.45
Chesapeake Bay 6.05 ± 1.14


It is notable that even the highest figure is not extreme by the standards of alarmists who claim a sea level rise
of many metres is imminent. Those in the metric system do not need translation to calculate the rise in a
hundred years, but for Americans the highest number provided for sea level rise, Chesapeake Bay, translates
into 1.98 feet in 100 years.
Elsewhere in the world similar figures are reported, such as:


Reykjavik, Iceland 2.34 ± 0.71 mm
Bermuda 2.04 ± 0.47 mm
Murmansk, Russia 3.92 ± 1.00 mm


But note that in Scandinavia we have negative numbers:


Goteborg, Sweden -1.3 ± 0.36 mm
Oslo, Norway -4.53 ± 0.34 mm


This presumably is a result of a non-climatic cause of sea level change, isostatic uplift in response to the loss
of the old ice sheet.
Other international papers present similar findings. For example, a very recent paper on the sea level of the
Aegean Sea shows the sea level is almost constant, but has been rising at 0.9 mm/yr for 5,000 years (Serafim et
al., 2009).
Holland, also known as the Nederlands or lowlands, is particularly vulnerable to an alarming rise of sea level.
Yet in a piece in the December 11 issue of NRC/Handelsblad, Rotterdam’s counterpart to the New York Times,
New Concepts in Global Tectonics Newsletter, no. 51, June, 2009
40
Wilco Hazeleger, a senior scientist in the global climate research group at KNMI (the Royal Netherlands
Meteorological Institute) wrote:
“In the past century the sea level has risen twenty centimetres. There is no evidence for accelerated sea-level
rise. It is my opinion that there is no need for drastic measures. … Fortunately, the time rate of climate change
is slow compared to the life span of the defence structures along our coast. There is enough time for
adaptation.”
All this information suggests that the data from the SW Pacific are, if anything, even less alarming than figures
from elsewhere in the world, which suggest a harmless and slow sea level rise. There is every reason to
conclude that sea level changes are regional and local but the short time range does not permit isolation of a
single cause, such as anthropogenic global warming.
From a tectonic viewpoint it is surprising that more islands are not sinking (and thus causing an apparent rise
in sea level). The Darwin theory of coral reef evolution, from fringing reef to barrier reef and eventually to
atoll, depends on slow sinking of the volcanic foundation of the coral island. The flat-topped sea mounts,
guyots, that are widespread in the Pacific indicate that non-coral islands in oceanic areas also sink. Presumably
the time scale is too short to record any detectable sinking in these stations in the southwest Pacific.[/quote]

If you want to know what I’m saying, please read what I wrote.

And they were proved wrong.

So you are claiming that sea levels are not rising, and you are acknowledging that they are rising. When you’ve made up your mind, let me know.

It’s not a matter of misreading, it’s a matter of misrepresentation. I note you still haven’t figured out the difference between an island sinking and sea levels rising.

The danger described in the article is precisely the danger you are saying does not exist. It is precisely the danger that scientists you call ‘climate alarmists’ are warning of.

On the contrary, you quoted in full an article saying it is.

That’s not science, it’s propaganda.

Spoken like a true believer. What I see mostly and first hand is cutting of mangroves leading to erosion but lots of squeals regarding rising seas even though several studies including above (why so silent?) Prove no such thing. The reason? Lots of money announced and lots of failed governments and desperate people hoping to tap into it. Never saw such a race for cash before have we? Smirk but let’s say it loud and proud SCIENCE!!!

It does not “prove” any such thing. There are plenty of papers that show rising sea levels, that does not “prove” they are right and the paper you chose is wrong. You lack understanding on what constitutes proof. You may choose to disregard the vast body of evidence that backs up the claim of sea rise as fraudulent, fabricated in order to extract more funding for research, that’s your choice, I wouldn’t argue with that position any more than I would waste my time with someone who believes the moon landings were fake.

I do however give more weight to those who are claiming, so far something like 6cm rise over the past 20 years, because it makes sense when looked at with all the other facts we have. Unless you want to claim there has been no warming, something I don’t think anyone is doing. Or that thermal expansion is an imagined phenomena. Because that is something you CAN prove, very precisely, which means in a warmer climate, you WILL see thermal expansion of the sea. That’s just considering the effect of thermal expansion, I could link you to relevant studies, post statistics or charts, made by the IPCC or the Copenhagen Synthesis report, but I know you will dismiss them as fraudulent. :unamused:

That is what is being claimed, there has been a few cm rise over the past decade, perhaps 60cm or a meter over the next century. When observed measurements are compared to previous predictions, if anything they have been too conservative in doing so as they reach the upper limits of what was previously predicted. Unless of course its a huge conspiracy and all the data was fudged, do let us know when you can “prove” that claim.

Funny then that I am the only one posting evidence to support my assertions. Where is yours or fortigurn?

Your assertions are nothing more than the foundation for conclusions that are non sequitur. It wouldn’t matter how much evidence is presented to you, or how credible, or from how many. Or that your evidence has been completely discredited. If your foundations crumble, so do your conclusions, and we can’t have that now can we.

Again I have posted several articles including the above on sealevel NON increases. You and fortigurn are suealing on like a bunch of girlscouts who got stiffed on thin mint sales. Regardless of your inability to disprove the above you and fortigurn no doubt believe that something must urgently be done about climate change despite 35 years of such efforts with ever newer more urgent action required to stave off impending doom because islands are increasing in size???

That’s because people don’t listen. Same old same old.

I don’t think Freddy is the denier, I think he just likes a good argument?

Well lots of talk here but NO studies on sea level rises or how billions and billions has achieved anything. Come on people. You can do better than this. Or can’t you? In which case we have to wonder why WHY???

I remind all you scientists out there that for the layperson, such as myself, the science is not so cut and dry…

[color=#FF0000]Earth’s Polar Ice Melting Less Than Thought[/color]

And not just that, but, this, too:

[color=#FF0000]Ocean levels worldwide are rising about six hundredths of an inch per year[/color]

That doesn’t seem like an emergency, to me??? :idunno:

And then there is this report:

[color=#FF0000]The Himalayas and nearby peaks have lost no ice in past 10 years[/color]

No ice lost in ten years? How can that be?

[color=#FF0000]The very unexpected result was the negligible mass loss from high mountain Asia, which is not significantly different from zero… [/color]

This stuff can’t all be dismissed, can it?

I provided mine previously. I quoted from your helpful article which said sea levels were rising to an extent which would endanger the livelihood of people living on certain islands, and in this post I provided a link to evidence of seal level rise. You failed to address any of this. Now you are claiming I didn’t even post it.

[quote=“Tigerman”]
I remind all you scientists out there that for the layperson, such as myself, the science is not so cut and dry…[/quote]

That’s because you’re not looking at the science. You’re looking at a few headlines and guessing about what the articles might say and mean.

You see ‘Earth’s Polar Ice Melting Less Than Thought’ and think ‘Oh ok, everything is fine and global warming might not be the danger people make it out to be’. But you overlook the fact that melting shouldn’t be happening on this scale at all, and is very bad news.

You see ‘Ocean levels worldwide are rising about six hundredths of an inch per year’, and think ‘Well that’s not much, not an emergency’. But you overlook the fact that no one is saying this rate is an emergency, and the fact that this rate is not expected to continue; sea level rise is expected to accelerate.

You see ‘The Himalayas and nearby peaks have lost no ice in past 10 years’, and The very unexpected result was the negligible mass loss from high mountain Asia, which is not significantly different from zero’, and think ‘No cause for concern then, and sounds like global warming isn’t happening’. But you overlook the fact that the very line under the headline says clearly ‘Meltwater from Asia’s peaks is much less than previously estimated, but lead scientist says the loss of ice caps and glaciers around the world remains a serious concern’, and the article goes on to say’“Our results and those of everyone else show we are losing a huge amount of water into the oceans every year,” said Prof John Wahr of the University of Colorado. “People should be just as worried about the melting of the world’s ice as they were before”'.

It shouldn’t be dismissed, and it isn’t being dismissed. But it shouldn’t be misrepresented either. For a useful overview written for laymen such as myself, read this.

Poor warmists…seems like every day they take another shot to the shorts on this GW/AGW/CC thingy…

Just a few items for a friday wrap-up…

Scientist admits IPCC used fake data to pressure policy makers…from 24 Jan 2010
"The scientist behind the bogus claim in a Nobel Prize-winning UN report that Himalayan glaciers will have melted by 2035 last night admitted it was included purely to put political pressure on world leaders.
Glacier scientist: I knew data hadn’t been verified

dailymail.co.uk/news/article … ified.html


Claim That Sea Level Is Rising Is a Total Fraud <–opens a PDF file
(the good stuff)

.06 - .08 of an inch?..about the thickness of a garbage bag.

Sea levels began to rise 18k years ago at the end of the last glacial period. They have risen about 135 meters since then which is an average of 7.5 millimeters per year. That is an average of 750 mm per century (29.5 inches) which is far more than the average over the last century.


From 1880 to 2000 sea level rose about 20 cm or just under 8 inches. Far far less than the nearly 30 inches per century average over the last 18,000 years.

from the Guardian (so it must be true :wink: )

The Himalayas and nearby peaks have lost no ice in past 10 years, study shows

“The world’s greatest snow-capped peaks, which run in a chain from the Himalayas to Tian Shan on the border of China and Kyrgyzstan, have lost no ice over the last decade, new research shows.
The discovery has stunned scientists, who had believed that around 50bn tonnes of meltwater were being shed each year and not being replaced by new snowfall.”

the CYA quote at the end:

“The new data does not mean that concerns about climate change are overblown in any way. It means there is a much larger uncertainty in high mountain Asia than we thought. Taken globally all the observations of the Earth’s ice – permafrost, Arctic sea ice, snow cover and glaciers – are going in the same direction.”

Un hunh…right…and which direction would that be? clockwise…counter-clockwise? Is it dependent on the hemisphere?
Maybe you should get a grant to work on that one… :unamused:

Fortigurn. You talk a lot about science but you can cite evidence to buttress your claims from only an article that I supplied. Ok. You must really have an array of facts and figures at your fingertips but we should take this on faith? The pacific islands MAY be sinking due to natural tectonics. Actions cutting down mangroves or poorly planned development may be to blame. What given the increased size of these islands leads you to believe that rising seas and climate change are to blame?

People like fortigurn have been calling global warming an emergency for 35 years. When we show evidence that the drastic negatives are not occurring what does he say? Evidence that it is not an emergency is not proof that global warming is not taking place? Who eanted this to be an emergency? Fortigurn and his ilk. Who is calling for urgent expensive action? So if this is not an emergency well then it is a politicized reading of cough cough science is it not?

No that is false I have linked you to this site repeatedly, at least twice in this recent exchange.

You don’t have to take anything on faith. Just read the scientific study I’ve linked to several times already. With regard to sea levels, see here, here, here, and here.

That is a complete falsehood.

You haven’t showed any evidence that the drastic negatives aren’t occurring.

Correct.

No one wants this to be an emergency. Once again I see no reference to the science, and another string of deliberate falsehoods.

You posted a two year old headline which included a complete lie.

As usual, the popular press, especially Fix News, is not telling the whole story.

Here’s the facts:

Har har, Heartland Institute Exposed: Internal Documents Unmask Heart of Climate Denial Machine

Although I doubt they will reveal much that isn’t already known. Although a few gems might be found, like this.

They want to keep opposing voices out? Isn’t that what the deniers accused the scientists of doing with peer reviewed work? Funding by Charles G. Koch Foundation, they in turn funding Anthony Watts research, well, I dont see much wrong with funding research, and doubt there will be anything that says outright they know full well the scientists are right and they are blatantly falsifying information for political gain, but one can hope. :slight_smile: