How do you decelerate?
0 voters
On a motorcycle with a manual transmission do you declutch or cog the bike into neutral when off the gas, or roll with the clutch engaged and the bike in gear, using engine braking?
Mordeth’s video has me intrigued since it sounds like his bike is idling when not accelerating. Is is just the sound the Ninja makes on the overrun?
Call me curious. 
Bike in gear with clutch in usually, but it all depends on the situation. I have creative use of the clutch depending on road conditions and traffic density, but the bike is never out of gear.
Think this was discussed fairly extensively in the “Are we downshifting?” thread a while ago, though not exclusively in a bike context. Majority view favored engine braking for both bikes and cars.
Mordeth’s video has opened my eyes to a whole new dimension of hell… Sure, we all spend a good portion of our lives waiting at red lights in Taiwan traffic… actually sitting there sucking down the fumes and filth, watching late comers push ahead of you and block your path while you watch the precious seconds of your life tick away as the little “ke ai” pedestrian animation guy hauls arse to nowhere in his little box is bad enough, I would say soul destroying… but watching someone else do it… in a video… :taz: kill me now…
To get back on topic… Not sure, I’d expect a 650 twin to have more engine braking than that video suggests… maybe Mordeth is coasting/clutching at times… then again I have read that you have to thrash the mini Ninja to high revs to make it sing, and it does sound/look like it likes a bit of throttle, so maybe it’s just coming down from high revs at comparatively low city traffic speeds so the engine braking isn’t as noticeable… Also on my old Z1000 Kwak I noticed after I put in a K&N filter and a race exhaust the engine braking was noticeably reduced… Not sure if Mordeth has a high flow filter, but he does have an aftermarket end can… maybe that contributes to the coasting…
Personally I never coast on the clutch, unless I’m at low speed and about to come to a full stop…
Mine is out of gear when it’s stopped, never when its moving. I hate that coasting feeling.
Keith Code’s superbike school teaches that you should use the brakes to slow down before you hit a turn and all down shifting should be done BEFORE you enter the turn, this means you are coasting with the clutch in seconds before you accelerate out of the turn. He shows a guy engine breaking on a race track and almost losing it.
I use a combination of both in the turns. I engine brake if my speeds from entering the turn and exiting aren’t drastically different, however when you have the clutch in you can get the revs up then decide to “punch” or “roll” the accleration. This is because a lot of the mountain turns are blind turns something you probablly wouldn’t see on a racetrack.
Two terms I’ve come up with. The “punch” is a quick release of the clutch at high revs, I point the bike and “punch” it to where I want to go. On a bike (especially litered ones) this could make the front end light without a steering dampner. Also if your’e rear wheel slides a little to give you a new line punching it pulls you along faster.
The “roll” is smoother, I get the revs up as I downshift with the clutch in then roll on the accelerator through the turn. More control and less chance of frontend lightening.
In city riding I’ve always felt the clutch is cheaper than the engine to replace. So rolling stops with clutch in. At high speeds, no, no coasting. When the clutch is engaged you lose some control of the bike I feel. The brakes will stop the bike better if you squeeze them rather than jerking them even in a quick stop situation, and your front brakes could do 100% of the stopping. In an emergency it would be front/ back brakes and engine stopping the bike for me.
Or do as I’ve seen some Taiwanese riders do and acclerate BEFORE the turn so that you wind up god knows where, of course they’re counting on God more than I am when riding.
We need a racetrack in this country by the way. 
I’m confused (or probably just reading this wrong)… I was always told that I should start accelerating immediately and smoothly on entry then continue rolling on throughout the turn. When I started doing this I immediately improved my cornering speed by at least 20-30%. Keith Code wrote pretty much the same thing in Twist Of The Wrist (cheers Mordeth 
).
“Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn. At the point where the correct transfer of weight is achieved by the rider (10 to 20 per cent rearward) by using the throttle, any big changes in that weight distribution reduce available traction.”
Llary, I can’t see anything in the bit you quoted that contradicts what you wrote. Try reading again. You are talking about accelerating out of the turn whilst Bubba 2 Guns wrote about decelerating before as opposed to during the turn.
I’m confused (or probably just reading this wrong)… I was always told that I should start accelerating immediately and smoothly on entry then continue rolling on throughout the turn. When I started doing this I immediately improved my cornering speed by at least 20-30%. Keith Code wrote pretty much the same thing in Twist Of The Wrist (cheers Mordeth ).
“Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn. At the point where the correct transfer of weight is achieved by the rider (10 to 20 per cent rearward) by using the throttle, any big changes in that weight distribution reduce available traction.”[/quote]
I think it was the way I wrote it 
You got it!
Sorry, I just read your post too quickly 
I was worried that I’ve been doing something wrong but we’re (literally) reading from the same page, right? Right??
Man… this is getting really confusing I was posting the quote to back up what I had been taught but it doesn’t matter because I just read Bubba’s post the wrong way and we’re all back on the same wavelength now (I think). Nothing to see here.
“Slow in, fast out…” IMHO, that means doing all your braking before the turn and rolling on the gas just after turning in. Depending on the turn, you might have to coast a little before getting on the gas again.
Trail braking is when you carry some braking into the turn. It helps the front end bite on some turns (note SOME). Left foot braking in a car also helps in some high speed turns.
Oh, and regarding coasting or engine braking… it really depends on the situation. In heavy Taipei traffic, it doesn’t make any sense to engine brake but in any situation other than putt putting around town, engine braking is really the way to go.
“this means you are coasting with the clutch in seconds before you accelerate out of the turn. He shows a guy engine breaking on a race track and almost losing it.”
I should have written “through” not “out” of the turn. It’s a wonderful world this “Zen” of cornering.
I’ve dedicated a lot of hours on and off the bike and I still feel like a novice. 
[quote=“redwagon”]
Mordeth’s video has me intrigued since it sounds like his bike is idling when not accelerating. Is is just the sound the Ninja makes on the overrun?
Call me curious. [/quote]
He’s certainly running around some of those corners with the clutch in…And to answer your question, the Ninja doesn’t really have a lot of compression braking. When I first got it, I’d downshift a little late, setting myself up in the corners like on the two stroke. It would chirp the rear tire upon doing so, and on a few occasions sent my back tire out (which is actually rather fun). Once past that initial downshift compression though, there isn’t much left.
To be honest, I think one of the reasons he’s doing it is to avoid the exhaust popping sounds in his videos because of the super loud aftermarket pipe. Even my stock exhaust does it after being up in the mountains for awhile.
[quote=“MJB”]
To be honest, I think one of the reasons he’s doing it is to avoid the exhaust popping sounds in his videos because of the super loud aftermarket pipe. Even my stock exhaust does it after being up in the mountains for awhile.[/quote]
Has he shown you his flaming exhaust trick yet? 
[quote=“llary”][quote=“MJB”]
To be honest, I think one of the reasons he’s doing it is to avoid the exhaust popping sounds in his videos because of the super loud aftermarket pipe. Even my stock exhaust does it after being up in the mountains for awhile.[/quote]
Has he shown you his flaming exhaust trick yet? [/quote]
The Chief has a cool one but you have to catch him after a big meal and he makes you hold the lighter.
[quote=“MJB”]
He’s certainly running around some of those corners with the clutch in…And to answer your question, the Ninja doesn’t really have a lot of compression braking. When I first got it, I’d downshift a little late, setting myself up in the corners like on the two stroke. It would chirp the rear tire upon doing so, and on a few occasions sent my back tire out (which is actually rather fun). Once past that initial downshift compression though, there isn’t much left.[/quote]
Oh, I see. I had thought the reason was maybe that there was too much compression braking. On 4cyl 600cc sportbikes I find there is so little flywheel effect and the compression on them is usually so high, it’s a little like riding a two-stroke in that you’re either accelerating or decelerating, there’s no cruising at a steady throttle position unless you’re going pretty fast or up enough of hill to present some load to the engine. Unlike a two-stroke though, there is enough compression that rolling off the throttle is almost as good as using the brakes. That results in a pretty jerky ride if you’re trying to go the speed limit in urban areas.
Well, if the little Ninja doesn’t have that much engine braking then I guess this isn’t the reason for coasting with the clutch in.
Ducked: I recall the other thread about braking. This one is about cruising while not accelerating and coasting, not about cornering or braking. Sorry if the title was confusing. 
FWIW, I was taught to use the clutch only for shifting, pull it in only moments before coming to complete stop, and only use neutral when stopped. IIRC it was actually illegal to coast in neutral or with the clutch in. You’d certainly fail a driving test for doing that. 
Still waiting for Mordeth to chime in on this one.
[quote=“redwagon”]
Ducked: I recall the other thread about braking. This one is about cruising while not accelerating and coasting, not about cornering or braking. Sorry if the title was confusing.
FWIW, I was taught to use the clutch only for shifting, pull it in only moments before coming to complete stop, and only use neutral when stopped. IIRC it was actually illegal to coast in neutral or with the clutch in. You’d certainly fail a driving test for doing that.
Still waiting for Mordeth to chime in on this one.[/quote]
Well, that thread ranged pretty widely, including an “In praise of coasting” by me, though I was heavily outnumbered and arguably outgunned on that one. Don’t want to rehash ALL that here, but I don’t see how (for cars at least) coasting could have been actually ILLEGAL (rather than disapproved of) when manual SAAB’s up to the 70’s had an optional freewheel in the transmission.
[quote=“redwagon”]
Still waiting for Mordeth to chime in on this one.[/quote]
Usually I shift down and use engine breaking while in the city. In the mountains I try to do what you are supposed to do according to Keith Code…but it doesn’t always work out that way. Plus in any of my vids that you watch I’m riding at about 80% of my normal riding…due to the camera blocking part of my view…and if I’m actually speaking then it goes down another 20% or so…but that still leaves me a bit up on the average rider…so don’t worry about my saftey much 
.