Coffee at home

Most coffee shops have good shop grinders. The problem is, the coffee will only taste good the day you bring it home. It will slowly have less and less flavor as the week wears on. If you’re already used to buying pre-ground coffee from the supermarket, you may not notice this so much. You would never want to do that with espresso, but Aeropress, moka pot, and French press should be passable. Only buy a week’s worth at a time–but I’d advise the same if you had a grinder.

How many cups of coffee do you plan on making each day, and how many cups at a time? Have you had coffee from a moka pot or French press before? How do you usually drink your coffee when you’re in a coffee shop or when you’re visiting someone’s place? Do you have any memorable coffee experiences you’d like to replicate at home if you could?

Coffee time -instead of tea time- in Latin America is an elaborate, DAILY affair, involving savory breads, sweets, coffee and plenty of gossip, whether at work or at home.

It has been my dream to import one of our handmade, artisanal coffee sets. Gorgeous and sturdy, not like those dinky tea sets they sell here. Alas, the weight alone… I’ll settle for a traditional iron mug next time I go to the ol country.

[quote=“zender”]I’m curious about how different different grinders, machines, beans, roast times etc really are.

I assume double-blind tests have been done wherein only one variable is changed. Any links? :ponder:

In blind taste tests, can average drinkers or even experts tell the difference between a cheap grinder and a grinder that’s over NT$10,000?

Can they tell the difference between the cheapest French press and the most expensive . . . whatever? I’m curious.

I’m sure there are real differences, but I wonder what percentage of tasters actually prefer one bean/grinder/method/machine/temperature/organic/etc over another.[/quote]

I haven’t seen any double blind studies because they would be fairly meaningless. I think there may be a bit of misunderstanding here. Coffee is a drink made by extracting solubles from the beans. The more extraction of oils the more flavor. Nothing mysterious about that. However you can also over extract and the coffee will come out bitter.

So removing or adding one variable is not the right way to experiment. You experiment with a finer or courser grind, with water temperature, with the amount of ground coffee per water ratio, and with the time of extraction.

If for example, you used the same beans but ground them very fine and did a pourover, the flavor would be much different from the same technique using courser grinds as the extraction period would be much shorter for the former (as the water would pass through the fine grind faster).

There are lots of sites where you can see people experimenting with these variables.

Oh, and of course beans matter a great deal as with any organic matter where they are grown, how they are grown, and how they are dried afterwards is very important. You’ll obviously get different flavors if you wash the skin off the cherry or leave it on to dry. Given that coffee flavors can range from citrus to chocolate and aromatic wood then it’s easy to see why yes people do favor certain beans over others.

Then there is the roasting which again obviously affects flavor depending how darkly you roast. Lighter roasts retain more of the original flavors. Darker roasts can come close to tasting burnt. And you can have the same type of coffee bean done very differently from various roasters.

Grinders matter though my experiments suggest that as long as it is decent you won’t notice much difference going to something great. Again they matter because a crapper grinder gives you lots of powder with the grinds which means extraction rates are all over the place. A typical blade grinder causes enough heat to affect the oils.

It’s fun to pretend that it is all nonsense, but solubles can be measure which means that the differences are real.

I agree with almost everything you’ve said. You’ve been at this a while and either done a lot of reading or else a lot of discussing with coffee people.

[quote=“Mucha Man”]
If for example, you used the same beans but ground them very fine and did a pourover, the flavor would be much different from the same technique using courser grinds as the extraction period would be much shorter for the former (as the water would pass through the fine grind faster).[/quote]
I think you meant to say the water would pass through the coarser grind faster, and therefore brew in a shorter time, all things being equal.

Both. :slight_smile:

Hmm, actually no I meant what I wrote but that is because I was typing before my coffee. :blush: Of course yes, a finer grind would drip more slowly.

So it’s much better to grind the beans right before you use them. That makes sense. But still I think that if you grind them at the shop and then store it properly, there shouldn’t be any problem with it. I mean, if it’s inside a hermetic bag inside a metal box, or something of the kind…

I like strong taste and I want to drink it with milk, so the Moka seems the way to go. I also might use the coffee for cooking (baking) stuff. Cama has the 3 people super tiny Bieletti for about 1100, whilst Ruten has the 4 people not much bigger one for about the same price. Now, I might also buy the burr grinder… the 600N looks good indeed, but I can’t justify the investment given the amount coffee I will be drinking anyway… and that I’m poor. Really. I accept donations :stuck_out_tongue:

Why don’t you buy a Nespresso. If you are not drinking much coffee that’s the best.

Leaving aside issues of quality and price, I’d be very hesitant to buy anything like that in Taiwan - it seems far too possible that in a year or two the coffee would disappear from the market here, and you’d be left with a useless machine.

ETA: for what it’s worth, we had a blade grinder for years, and were given a burr grinder about a year ago - we use a French Press, and the local Partner Coffee shop for freshly ground beans, bought in one pound bags once or twice a month; the bag of Mandehling Brasil that we’ve now almost finished (on May 24) was roasted on May 9, according to the package, and I probably bought it May 11 or so. I usually grind a couple of days worth at one time. If I’m paying close attention, I guess I might notice a difference between freshly-ground and yesterday-ground, but to my rather non-discerning palate it’s not a big deal. I’d heard that one of the most important steps for getting better coffee was moving from a blade grinder to a burr grinder, and, well, I’m really not sure if there was a difference, or if I just enjoyed it more because I knew I was using a fancy new machine.

However, this is all written by someone who gets seriously annoyed by how his palate and/or sense of smell has real trouble picking up on differences that others will go on at great length about. I sometimes wonder if I’m the food equivalent of colour blind.

Three years ago my drip machine broke and I switched to a French press, which I’ve been happy with. I had to experiment with the grind and other factors already mentioned. I really like Costa Rican beans and get mine from a roaster in Nankan and in Taipei.

My biggest mistake at first was brewing with water that was too hot, like boiling hot. The 85°C café is called that for a reason :blush:

After oil, coffee is the most valuable traded commodity in the world. With so many people drinking cups of it every day, shouldn’t they really do blind taste tests to find out what they really like?

Is it worth it for you to spend the extra cash on more expensive beans? Can you taste the difference between organic and regular beans? Is it worth it to spend extra time and money on one machine/method over another?

Have any of you done a blind taste test with coffee? Shouldn’t tasters be blind?

Is coffee so different from wine? How much is smoke and mirrors? :ponder:

[quote=“Steve4nLanguage”]

My biggest mistake at first was brewing with water that was too hot, like boiling hot. The 85°C café is called that for a reason :blush:[/quote]

IIRC the correct water temperature for brewing is about 92 C (200 F). 85 C is optimal for drinking.

I don’t want to tie myself to any capsule/brand/system. I know that nespresso are good, so the Philips Saeco are too. But here in Taiwan they’re more expensive than in Europe and parts and so could be scarce…

Yup. And sticking to one capsule/brand/system means you can’t explore some of the awesome local roasters popping up all over the place in Taiwan.

Guy

Stay away from Nespresso, Keurig, or any other proprietary system like that. They lock you in and are MUCH more expensive when buying coffee kg-per-kg. Plus, they’re worse for the environment than a moka pot or French press, which produce no more waste and require no recycling. Please, people, stop buying and recommending these systems, no matter how convenient they may seem.

I’d say it’s okay to go with a moka pot in your situation since you already know you like strong coffee–just don’t question why you can’t taste the blueberries in expensive coffees. It’ll also be easier to buy a grinder that’ll grind for moka pot than for French press.

I’d still suggest buying a grinder. The Porlex (also sold as Nippon) should do fine, and it should future-proof you if you decide to get an Aeropress or Kalita Wave 155.

Please buy your beans freshly roasted and in relatively smallish quantities. If weekly is too often, then go every two weeks. You can start drinking some beans a day or two after being roasted, particularly dark roasts. Lighter roasts sometimes taste better if you let them rest a week after roasting before you start using them.

Pretty sure that’s been debunked.

[quote=“zender”]
Is it worth it for you to spend the extra cash on more expensive beans? Can you taste the difference between organic and regular beans? Is it worth it to spend extra time and money on one machine/method over another?[/quote]
I respect the scepticism and actually encourage it, but the short answers are:

Yes.
Organic has never been about taste, as far as I am aware.
Yes.

To expand on points one and three: just don’t go overboard to the point of luxury, but there will be a minimum of time and money. Don’t worry, it’s well within the reach of a working-class family.

[quote=“jesus80”]So… I don’t really drink much coffee, but sometimes I do and I like it. I’m considering to buy a small and cute expresso machine, but I read somewhere that these tiny coffee machines are shit. In concrete, I like this one (and it’s cheap! only 1990 NT at Carrefour and some other Ruten sellers):

goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21403110791537[/quote]

5 bar isn’t enough for a proper espresso. A 12-15 bar machine will give you a better aroma, and shouldn’t be much more expensive. And it doesn’t have to be stronger if you draw it long/don’t tamper much.

Leaving aside issues of quality and price, I’d be very hesitant to buy anything like that in Taiwan - it seems far too possible that in a year or two the coffee would disappear from the market here, and you’d be left with a useless machine.[/quote]

I have to disagree with that; let alone the price, Nespresso’s coffee is renowned to be very good and their sealed capsule system conserves aromas well and long. There’s been a lot of reviews about that.
It’s part of the Nestle Group which is well established in Taiwan, so I wouldn’t worry too much about supply either. The big drawback is clearly the capsules price, and that you’re stuck to their capsules or compatible ones, which limits the variety of coffees you can drink.

Uhmmmm, so you recommend this one:

amazon.com/Porlex-JP-30-Stai … B0002JZCF2

Just curious, has anybody tried or heard anything about this other? camacafe.com/categories/8/products/34

[quote=“double-g”]
5 bar isn’t enough for a proper espresso. A 12-15 bar machine will give you a better aroma, and shouldn’t be much more expensive. And it doesn’t have to be stronger if you draw it long/don’t tamper much.[/quote]
Lever espresso machines can be as low as 7 (6?) bar. Most commercial ones are set at 9 or thereabouts from the factory, I believe. Cafes adjust them based on their preferences. I think some set them up to 11. There are even some newer ones that can alter the pressure while the shot is being pulled, so it may start at one setting, switch to another, and finish with a third one. However, I’ve heard precious little discussion about the 12-15 range. Also, drawing an espresso shot longer has more of an impact on overall flavor that just diluting it. I’d also leave off any discussion of tamping unless it’s in a dedicated espresso thread.

[quote=“double-g”]
I have to disagree with that; let alone the price, Nespresso’s coffee is renowned to be very good and their sealed capsule system conserves aromas well and long. There’s been a lot of reviews about that.
It’s part of the Nestle Group which is well established in Taiwan, so I wouldn’t worry too much about supply either. The big drawback is clearly the capsules price, and that you’re stuck to their capsules or compatible ones, which limits the variety of coffees you can drink.[/quote]
Nespresso’s coffee is most certainly NOT “renowned to be very good”. It is, however, better than Starbucks’ and their ilk, and is often the misguided preference for many upscale restaurants who don’t want to put a lot of effort into making coffee. This will most likely continue in the short term, but my guess is you’ll see more second-rate restaurants adopt Nespresso while more quality-focused ones adopt something which allows for more freshness and better taste.

Basically, brewing an americano with a Nespresso instead of taking a bit of time to make a cup of brewed coffee with something like a French press is like eating with disposable forks and recycling them because you don’t want to take a bit of time to wash the dishes. The environmental, and financial, impact are similar.

[quote=“jesus80”]Uhmmmm, so you recommend this one:
amazon.com/Porlex-JP-30-Stai … B0002JZCF2
[/quote]
Yes. I believe it’s also sold under the Nippon name here in Taiwan. Just be aware that the handle may come off while you’re grinding if you go too fast. You have to put a slight downward pressure on it with your cranking hand. Once you get used to that, you can slowly start going faster and faster. I think it used to come off maybe twice a year or so on me.

Disregard this post.