Again you are asking a lot of wrong questions? Organic is meaningless. Learn some cultivars, learn how altitude and aspect and soil affect beans. Learn the different processing techniques. Learn the variety of roasting.
You are asking if someone really can tell the difference between chocolate and lavender. Or if the mouth can really distinguish an oily creamy taste from a thin dry taste. Is that really sensible?
I probably am too skeptical and asking all the wrong questions. I thought that some people thought that organic things tasted better (or least different) than non-organic food. I guess I was wrong. And good catch by SlowRain that coffee being second only to oil is just a myth. I’m learnin’ sumthin’.
You guys clearly know much more about coffee than I do. But I am skeptical about peoples abilities to distinguish wine quality, and I’ve seen enough cooking shows with blind taste tests (and other blind taste tests) that enforce my skepticism.
I’ve seen cooking competitions with people talking a good game, until they’re blindfolded. Then, suddenly . . . they can’t tell meat from cheese. I shit you not. And of all the taste tests of food, I’ve never seen a Double Blind test like any pharmaceutical test in the west.
In the following short clip, these guys know the general type of food they’ll be eating . . . true berries . . so strawberries are not in the category, but bananas are. Now, it’s a bit tricky in that what 'true berries" are can confuse people. However, if you have an internet connection, you’ve likely seen some lists of what is and what is not a true berry.
So, here is a short clip of that blind taste test. (This is an unscientific way to test . . . it’s too easy for testers as the two people beside them are helping them by saying things like, “Ew . . . sour!”
Still, start at the 3 minute mark of this video, and you’ll see the following foods confused:
cherry tomatoes vs olives
watermelon vs canteloupe
pumpkin vs carrot (and some fruit puree)
pumpkin vs plums
avocado vs guava
So, I’m skeptical. I think the average coffee drinker in the west spends over US$1,000/year on their habit. Maybe some of them can really tell if their beans were was grown at a different altitude. Or maybe they don’t know the difference between Maxwell House Instant and Kopi Luwak.
I mostly agree with you, but I do think there’s a wide range of tasting abilities. Mine isn’t too hot - I like Starbucks black coffee more than 7-11 black coffee (well, Americano), and I like my home French press stuff more, but they’re all fine. When I buy coffee beans at Partner Coffee, I definitely like some bags of beans more than others, but that preference doesn’t correlate much with price. The coffee I’m drinking right now is from beans I ground a day or two ago, and I certainly don’t notice a difference between this cup and yesterday’s. When I spend 200NTD on a small cup of high-end coffee at a nice place here in Danshui, I think it’s nice, but at a fundamental level I don’t really get it. But other people have more discerning palates, partly through DNA (see Wikipedia and a couple of BBC articles on super tasters), and partly through education - for beer, I’m pretty discerning. Coffee, maybe medium. Tea and wine, not a clue.
I’d guess that for some people, perhaps even many, there soon becomes a point when spending more for good coffee at home isn’t worth it - you’re not going to taste the difference. But other people do continue to taste the difference.
Tangentially related: the New Yorker had a recent article about how poor the English language is at describing smell - I wonder how or if the language to describe smells (and, by extension, taste - because I think my poor sense of smell is the big reason my palate isn’t too discerning) also connects to what people are able to taste.
So long as skepticism doesn’t lead to stubbornness, it’s a healthy thing.
I haven’t watched the video, but I’m not too surprised. Identifying specific flavors, even for myself, isn’t easy. I don’t claim to be able to taste or accurately describe specific or subtle flavors. I think I can get some, but not all, of the more obvious ones. And, as has been mentioned, different people taste different things. I’m more about finding the flavor that I like, regardless if I can put a name on it or not. And, don’t worry too much about Kopi Luwak. I’ve never tasted it, nor do I want to, but it isn’t held in very high regard in the specialty coffee industry. It’s viewed more as a gimmick for Indonesia’s tourism and export markets. The ethical treatment of the civet cats alone makes it a no-go for most people–and rightly so.
Most people should be able to make better coffee at home than what Starbucks makes, and, yes, I’d say 7-11 coffee is worse than Starbucks’. The very fact that you say Starbucks coffee is fine leads me to believe you buy dark roasts in general and don’t always use them up while they’re still fresh. Two flavor characteristics I get from Starbucks coffee are burnt and stale, but I wouldn’t have known what those specific things taste like if I hadn’t experienced fresh, non-burnt coffee.
Generally, I’d suggest people buy fruit, vegetables, meat, baked goods, and coffee as fresh as possible. Secondly, go just a tad bit lighter on the roast than you typically buy. Don’t go all the way to a light roast as that would be a shock to the system, and not everyone likes a light roast. However, I feel people who like light roasts are okay with a medium roast, and people who like dark roasts are also okay with a medium roast. Try fresh, medium-roasted coffee for a month, no exceptions–then go back to whatever you were using previously. You may be surprised how a broader frame of reference can alter long-held beliefs.
Higher-priced coffee doesn’t always equal more preferable coffee. Some geographical areas have higher costs of production than others. That’s why Taiwanese and Hawaiian coffees are more expensive than comparable Ethiopian coffees, for example. There are certain flavors that certain people are willing to pay more for, even though you may not. Also, rarity of certain micro-lots of coffee affect the price. And, even I could take an extremely expensive coffee bought at auction and burn it to make it taste like Starbucks’ or 7-11’s coffee. You’d be equally perplexed as to why it was so expensive.
I’m curious about this - where in Taipei can I even buy coffees at different levels of roast? Partner Coffee in Danshui sells different kinds of beans, with the date roasted printed on the price tag - places like Carrefour and Starbucks sell different “levels” of roast, but roasted god knows when. Where can I buy coffee beans recently roasted, where I choose the level? What are the Chinese characters I should be looking for? (Who knows, maybe Partner Coffee does have that, but I just can’t read that part of the label.)
Hmmm, yes, there is a thread here that’s a couple years old, but it seems to have gone a bit ‘stale’. I’m curious as well if anyone has any new suggestions for beans in Taipei, especially places that are honest about date of roasting. I walked out of a shop the other day after they gave me the runaround (“uh all our beans are very ‘fresh’,” when they smelled otherwise) Personally, I usually get beans at Cama because of convenience and freshness.
Can you choose the depth of roast at Cama? My wife sometimes picks up our coffee beans there (one of their branches is quite convenient for her, but not for me), but I’ve never really looked at their labels.
Now I’m thinking all sciencey. I’d like to get the same kind of beans, roasted the same day, one dark roasted and one medium roasted, and trying making each in a French press, and see if I pick up on a difference (or have a preference).
I have no complaints about either Partner or Cama - I’m just curious about this whole medium and dark roasted thing, and I’m not sure how to investigate further.
Very, very seldom do roasteries roast the same bean to different levels/degrees. Usually they buy a bean and roast it to the degree they like, but they roast another kind a little differently because it brings out a different flavor. Only if they want to do a presentation to the public would they roast the same bean different ways. Find a local coffee shop with experienced and friendly staff and start talking to them about coffee. However, the only coffee shop I’ve ever heard of doing this on a regular basis is actually here in Taiwan, but in Taichung. It’s called Orsir, but I have some issues with their roasting and prices. I don’t discourage anyone from trying them, though, but maybe only after a person has more experience first. They use their own rating system–M0, M0+, M, M+, M1, and M2–where M0 is light and M2 is very dark.
I’d suggest simply going to your regular place where you buy coffee and showing the worker what you usually buy and then asking if it is a light, medium, or dark roast. Then point to another one and ask if it is lighter or darker than what you usually buy. Explain that you’d like to try something a little different, but not too different. They’ll ask what flavors you want in your coffee, and that’s where things can get tricky. Ask them to describe what flavors are in some of the different beans and see if anything interests you. They’ll most likely ask if you can “accept a little sour” (lighter-roasted coffees will taste “brighter” or more sour than darker roasted ones). I’d tell them you don’t really know, so don’t give you anything too sour. I’d buy a small bag, usually 225g, as an experiment. Next time you go back, try to talk to the same person if you can and use your experience from your regular coffee and the experimental one you bought last time to find something different. Keep doing this, and don’t be afraid to look a little foolish. I’ve said, and still say, some pretty dumb things in front of coffee people. In Taiwan, they usually smile or chuckle and try their best to help you. You may be surprised how much the workers at these places appreciate enquiries and enjoy talking about their offerings. However, if you find the workers can’t really answer your questions or help you, you may want to find a place that can.
Cama is a franchise, but I believe they’re somewhat decentralized. I think each location does their own roasting, so, while they may use the same bean and the same make and model of roaster and try to follow the same directions, there may be slight variances between locations. My only experience with their cappuccino was not great, but it’s quite likely their beans for brewed coffee are fine. I say give them a try, but don’t limit yourself to just one coffee shop. Buy a couple times from one place to get a feel for their style, then switch to another place to see what they have and what their style is like (other than simply another Cama, of course). I really suggest buying in small, weekly quantities and experimenting a bit.
In Taichung, I’d expect to pay at least NT$250 for 225g of coffee from a decent coffee shop, but I may have to pay up to NT$300 for something I liked better. There are, of course, coffees at NT$350, NT$500, NT$900, and even higher, but I wouldn’t go over NT$350 myself unless I was buying something for my parents or someone special to try. Places like Cama, and OKLao in Taichung, may be cheaper, but you’d have to compare their coffees to other places to see for yourself if the extra money is worth it. I imagine the prices in Taipei would be more expensive, but I don’t know to what degree. (I’m sorry I can’t be more helpful in this regard as I roast my own coffee and I’m a little out of touch with the prices of roasted coffee, especially in Taipei.)
That is what I thought until two weeks ago. Have been making my morning cup the same way for almost 2 and a half years now: beans within a week of being roasted, ground in my Porlex while the water is heating up to a boil, water somewhere between 92-95C, same ceramic cone, same filter papers. I have have experimented with quite a few bean varieties but for the past nine months or so have settled on a Mandheling/Brazil mix which I really like. The Brazil beans are light to medium roasted and the Mandheling are darker. It produces a cup I really like.
To get to the point: two weeks ago I had to take the 6:30 HSR to Taipei. To save time in the morning I decided to grind the beans the night before and put them in a sealed plastic bag on the kitchen counter. The difference was huge. I would say, and I don’t think I am exaggerating, half of their flavour was lost. I was so disappointed and I would never have believed it if someone else had told me. I had to experience it for myself.
I guess if you are changing beans, changing brewing methods, and using different grinds all the time, the difference wouldn’t be so noticeable. However, I had kept everything constant for such a long time that the difference was instant and marked.
So I got the 3 cups version of the Bialetti Moka Express. I firstly tested it with tea (yeah, tea leaves) to prove that I was able to make it work 
and then I prepared coffee (the Brazil mix from Cama that somebody else has mentioned before). I just had a sip and poured the content into 3 small cristal bottles with some drops of honey and topped off with milk; I already had some coffee at Cama and I want to sleep tonight…
I think that I might have burnt it a little bit, but I can’t be sure. The vulcano started to erupt after 4 minutes instead of 5, which is what some people say to be the correct timing. that might mean that I either put too less coffee (I don’t think so) or that perhaps the heat was too much. Trial and error, I guess. I foresee a very active future as well as some stomach ulcer.
[quote=“jesus80”]So I got the 3 cups version of the Bialetti Moka Express. I firstly tested it with tea (yeah, tea leaves) to prove that I was able to make it work and then I prepared coffee (the Brazil mix from Cama that somebody else has mentioned before). I just had a sip and poured the content into 3 small cristal bottles with some drops of honey and topped off with milk; I already had some coffee at Cama and I want to sleep tonight…
I think that I might have burnt it a little bit, but I can’t be sure. The vulcano started to erupt after 4 minutes instead of 5, which is what some people say to be the correct timing. that might mean that I either put too less coffee (I don’t think so) or that perhaps the heat was too much. Trial and error, I guess. I foresee a very active future as well as some stomach ulcer.[/quote]
The Moka Pot is not the easiest brewing method to master. I have been using it on and off for more than 2 years and only recently have established method that gives me pretty consistent results. Here are some of the things I have learned:
DON’T GRIND TOO FINE. You don’t want it as fine as expresso. I grind mine the same as I do for pourover which is a little finer than medium-fine. Check out http://ineedcoffee.com/coffee-grind-chart/ for reference. It is somewhere between medium fine and fine. If you pinch it between forefinger and thumb a little clumping will result but not as much as it would for espresso grind. If you grind too fine, it is going to take too long to extract and the result will be bitter.
BOIL THE WATER FIRST before pouring it into the base of the Moka Pot. This is an important step because you want don’t want the coffee aromas disspating away while the water is heating up. You want to reduce the time the coffee is exposed to heat. It the water takes four minutes to heat up, your coffee is sitting on top of that heat for four minutes before the water rises through the coffee into the top chamber. That is four minutes of needless exposure to heat. So, boil the water in a kettle first, add it to level with the release vavle in the bottom chamber, place your filter with the ground coffee already in it on top of the water, and then screw in the top chamber.
DON’T TAMP DOWN YOUR COFFEE. Once again, it is not espresso and that little Moka Pot only generates a bar and a half of pressure so if you tamp it down it is going to take ages to extract and the result is going to be a bitter cup. Rather, just fill it to the top of the filter and level it off with something flat. DONT TAMP DOWN. I measure mine exactly. I know that 15.5 grams of medium-fine/fine grind is perfect for my pot. You will learn from experience how much is best for your pot. Invest in a cheap digital scale. You won’t regret it.
TIGHTEN THE TOP CHAMBER FIRMLY. For a long time I wasn’t tightening mine enough and air was escaping which lengthened the extraction time and produced a bitter cup. I got some bad advice from a Youtube clip which warned against tightening too much and wasted a lot of good coffee in the process. To prevent your hand getting burned wrap a thick cloth around the bottom chamber which has already been filled wth just boiled water while screwing in the top chamber.
REPLACE YOUR SILICONE GASKET if you feel it has degraded. They will and do deteriorate and eventually won’t seal properly.
If you preheat your water, the whole process shouldn’t take more than a minute. From the moment the first rivulet of coffee starts rising into the top chamber to the point where its starts to spurt and froth, that period of time shouldn’t exceed 50 seconds. If I get closer to 40 seconds, I know I am going to get a good cup. If I get between 30 and 40 seconds, I get a really good cup with a hint of sweetness.
I can’t think of anything else now, but if I do I will add it to the list.
Congratulations on your moka pot. Enjoy the coffee and the fun of playing around with different parameters. And consider buying a grinder when you’ve got the extra funds.
Congratulations on your moka pot. Enjoy the coffee and the fun of playing around with different parameters. And consider buying a grinder when you’ve got the extra funds.[/quote]
If your funds are limited with and you are looking for a solid grinder, then I would, without hesitation, reccommend the Porlex. It is really solidly built, adjustable from super fine to really coarse, and takes up almost no space in the kitchen. Sure it is a bit more sweat having to hand grind coffee twice a day, but if you are only making for yourself, it makes much more sense than buying a counter top burr grinder. It is also a lot cheaper too. Stay away from the whirlyblade type grinders. As mentioned by other posters they grind coffee to uneven sizes and you are going to get anywhere from large chunks to fine dust and you will never be able to make a consistent cup.
And just a thumbs up to everything that SlowRain says. He is very knowledgeable on the subject of coffee and one of the people who got me excited about coffee in the first place. He is also extremely helpful. 
I think both you and Mucha Man have posted some really good stuff as well. It’s good to get this information circulating.
Hey guys, thanks for the tips.
I finished the first package of “Brazil mix” from Cama (yeah, I said that we don’t drink that much coffee), and I can say that yes, grounded coffee lose the aroma after some time even if stored in its bag inside a sealed vacuum jar
So now I’m considering to get myself a grinder but I don’t want to spend a lot. The 600N looks nice and I just saw it for 1,900 NT on ruten… but meh… I’m buying too many toys all the time, I need to control my expenses!
I also have seen this:
goods.ruten.com.tw/item/show?21529115269003
There are many similar things on shops and ruten too… any experience or recommendation? Thanks!
(NOTE: I’m also considering the Japanese tube-like grinder that somebody recommended on this thread before, it’s cheaper on Amazon than in ruten!)
The Akira grinder in the picture above (and the one made by Tiamo, for that matter) is a knock-off of a Hario Skerton, which I have. It really depends on your needs. I’d probably go for the Hario over the Akira, even at twice the price, because I feel you’ll have better longevity. However, both grinders have a slight problem if you use them a lot: the plastic housing around the top of the shaft will wear away and get sloppy. It hasn’t happened to mine yet, but I used it sparingly. The Porlex and Nippon–which I mentioned earlier, and which I recommend over these ones–both have a collar which holds the shaft and minimizes this problem.
These Japanese and Chinese ceramic grinders are all really only good for finer grinding. The only reason I can see for getting a Hario or Akira over the Porlex or Nippon is if you are grinding large amounts on a regular basis. I can grind for about two cups in my Porlex and over four in my Hario. However, the Hario is slower than the Porlex. Neither style is really recommended for French press grinding.
SlowRain, is any of these toys better than the others for using in combination with the Bialetti?
Sorry, I don’t have a moka pot, but I do have an espresso machine. A moka grind should be slightly coarser than an espresso grind, but I imagine different people like different grind sizes. Coffee is a very personal thing, actually. My Porlex did just fine as an entry-level espresso grinder. I never even tried using my Hario Skerton as an espresso grinder because I felt it was too slow and much less comfortable to hold.
I see.
Is the grain size adjustable in the Porlex? it is in the others…
Yep. It’s on the inside and easy to access.