Comprehensible Input (CI) and Mandarin Training in Taiwan

Language Learning Chinese
1

Hi everyone

Recently, I’ve been reading about acquiring language through exposure to “comprehensible input” (CI). I’ve seen quite a few discussions on this forum (and others) about CI. I’m guessing that there may be a few people here with real practical experience of using CI techniques in the real world, to teach second languages. If so, I hope to tap into some of your collective wisdom. :slight_smile:

As a beginner Mandarin learner, I’d really like to make as much progress as I can. However, I feel that the methods I’ve been using up until now have not been very effective. My progress has been slower than I would have liked. I’ve learned a lot of grammar and vocabulary, but I’m still unable to really apply it in real-world conversation. I’ve tried all sorts of things over the past couple of years, including:

[ol]
[li] Adult language classes in the UK.
These have tended to focus on teaching grammar, with some listening comprehension. Teachers encouraged us to speak early and often by generating new sentences from taught grammar patterns. We held many “conversations”, but always between beginners. The amount of useful CI was very low. Turnover of students (and teachers) was very high.[/li]
[li] Watching films (and television) in Mandarin.
I’m open to this as a method, though I find that, at my stage of learning, I’m generally unable to comprehend films that I find most interesting. Conversely, I’ve not yet found anything that’s interesting that’s also easy enough to comprehend. Maybe other readers will know of some good resources?[/li]
[li] Spaced repetition systems (SRS).
I’ve used these for a long time in order to increase my vocabulary and writing skills. But in the long run, I’ve found they require too much maintenance to keep the numbers of “expired facts” down, especially for words I’ve not yet encountered in a real-life context. I have found them to be more effective for learning concrete nouns and 漢字, but less effective for acquiring communication skills.[/li]
[li] Conversations with Mandarin-speaking friends in the UK.
I am lucky enough to have a few good friends that speak Mandarin fluently. Though I find, paradoxically, that it’s rather difficult to acquire language by spending time with them. If they talk among themselves, then I’m exposed to large quantities of input - unfortunately most of it (at the moment) incomprehensible (to me). If we try to talk together in Mandarin, then I feel it’s quite painful for them, as I can only express and comprehend a limited number of concepts. I feel it’s a burden on my friends, so I hold back, and we usually revert to English. The desire to communicate always wins in the end.[/li]
[li] Audio CDs.
I’ve not yet had enough experience with these to know whether they’re really effective, though I have tried a few. I wonder whether the lack of visual interaction will limit their effectiveness in the long run.[/li]
[li] Rosetta Stone.
I’ve played with this for a while (many hours, actually), but some of the topics seem quite contrived, and seem not applicable to everyday scenarios. However, I feel it had a (somewhat) positive effective on my pronunciation, and at least I was able to acquire some (albeit contrived) language. [/li][/ol]

So, I’d really like to try something more effective. I’ve heard about the principles of CI, as espoused by Krashen and others, and these ideas seem pretty reasonable. It seems natural that the brain is good at learning language fragments in association with actions, and it seems reasonable that natural understanding of grammar comes as the result of exposure to large numbers of comprehensible messages. I’m aware that CI by itself may not be a silver bullet - but I’d like to give it a try.

I’ve heard about the existence of schools in Thailand (tinyurl.com/5vlnty2 inspire some confidence.

So my questions to Forumosans:

[ol]
[li] Do you know of a school, in Taiwan, or anywhere else, that tries to apply these principles to teaching adults Standard Mandarin?[/li]
[li] Do any of the major Mandarin learning centres (such as ICLP) apply these techniques?[/li]
[li] Have any of you had first-hand experience of such a school, and if so, did you find the techniques effective?[/li]
[li] Do you think CI is even suitable for a classroom environment, or is it only practical with one-to-one training? (Possibly a lot more :2cents: )[/li][/ol]

I’ve had a look at some of the Mandarin Learning Centers around Taiwan, but many of their websites don’t seem to provide much information on teaching methods, once you get beyond the sparkly flash animations.

I’m currently in the UK, but I’m thinking of taking a career break to learn Mandarin properly, and I’m really interested in learning the language in Taiwan. I’m pretty determined, and willing to spend a couple of years doing it (or more). Though, I really want to find something that’s more effective than the techniques I’ve been using until now…

Thanks for your help. :slight_smile:

Jonathan

2

Here’s the straight story, if you are looking for efficient acquisition via CI for Mandarin.

Darn few teachers do it. None of them (as far as I know) are in Taiwan. Most of them are not Chinese. Many of them are in our “cell” :wink: in Upstate New York. I train new ones when I can get anyone interested enough to cooperate.

All language centers in Taiwan use essentially the same methods and the same materials, with small variations. These variations are not great enough to put the instruction outside the traditional output heavy methods.

You can learn Mandarin in Taiwan, if you really know what you want and really know how to “train” your teachers/tutors to get it. But you are not likely to get anyone who can provide you with a CI-based experience in the sense that a teacher should be providing a student with input, in a principled manner.

If you want a CI-fest, you might consider visiting the US in July. Two big CI-based conferences that month – the National TPRS conference in St. Louis this year, and then a week later (usually) the IFLJT…I always mess up the initials. Anyway it’s a bunch of teachers in California. National TPRS is more for teacher training, though, as I hear they are not doing the language intensives anymore (not certain, though.) I haven’t been to the other (couldn’t afford it last year) but a colleague of mine went. More theoretical.

3

Hello ironlady

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed and candid reply.

[quote=“ironlady”][quote=“外星人”]Do you know of a school, in Taiwan, or anywhere else, that tries to apply these principles to teaching adults Standard Mandarin?
Do any of the major Mandarin learning centres (such as ICLP) apply these techniques?
[/quote]
God no. The horror!
All language centers in Taiwan use essentially the same methods and the same materials, with small variations. These variations are not great enough to put the instruction outside the traditional output heavy methods.
[/quote]
Ah, that’s a shame… Taiwan seems in many ways to be a great place to learn Mandarin. I know it has some drawbacks (such as the mixed-language environment), but I’d be willing to suffer those for all the other good things. I’ve just found some of your old forum posts, from which I can see you’ve hinted upon a few reasons for the lack of CI-adoption in Taiwan. I can see it’s not for want of trying.

As for CI-based training: correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m guessing that it’s most effective when teachers and students are located in the same place? From your experience, can teachers deliver CI-based training to their students from remote locations? To what extent does the effectiveness of CI suffer when delivered remotely? If you reckon it can be delivered remotely, then what conditions would you say are important for training to be most effective?

Also, what types of consolidation training do you encourage your students to do between your teaching sessions with them?

Sorry if the answers to these questions seem fairly obvious, but I thought I’d ask them anyway, since I’m curious (and it might help someone else out there). I’d definitely be interested to give this type of training a try, if I could be convinced that it would work remotely. :slight_smile:

Out of interest, what’s your opinion of the ALG-based (“automatic language growth”) schools in Thailand? I see they have taught Mandarin in the past. Not sure if they still do. I quote from their webpage (algworld.com/):

On a related topic – I’ve often heard people talk about audio-based materials such as Pimsleur and Assimil. In your opinion, are these any good as a source of CI for the self-learner? Or are there better, not-so-well-known materials out there? By the way, I did discover one of your books on Amazon. :slight_smile:. I will check it out. Is there a 繁體字/正體字 translation available?

Thanks!

Jonathan

4

I have to come to Taiwan sometime this year, and usually stay 4-5 weeks. I could do an intensive for you if we could figure out a mutually agreeable time. I’d be in Taipei, most likely, this time around. Most likely times are September/October or late October/November.