[Conscript] Draft dodgers caught...!

Legal Military Conscription
1

A friend of mine recently read in the Chinese newspaper of a few people who were drafted because they stayed too long in Taiwan. According to the article they stayed past the four month grace period given. Those people were actually considered draft dodgers in the eyes of the ROC militray according to the article. My question is if one stays past the four month grace period is the ROC military going to immediately hunt your down and draft you or is this just the point they start counting? I remember reading that if you stay past four months then they start counting the number of days afterwards and if your stay for another predetermined amount of time then they hunt you down and draft you. I also remeber reading about some new law that stated that the four month visa run loop hole was going to be closed–meaning that ones visits to Taiwan when total, equals i year then the ROC military will hunt you down and draft you. There are so many questions…? Let me summarize…

  1. Does the four month visa run rule still work?
  2. If you stay past four months do they draft you immediately or do they just start counting? If they just start counting then how long do they count before they hunt you down and draft you?
  3. Did they change the rules? Does the one year cummulative rule apply now?

I am currently in Reno, NV. Any information would be helpful.

2

Have you submitted this question to the ROC Representative Office in San Francisco? Or do you have relatives in Taiwan who could submit a written inquiry directly to the government in Taiwan? Wouldn’t that be better (i.e. more authoritative) than just collecting “scuttlebutt” from various posters to this forum??

3

Well, it behooves me the try when I thought the forum might have members that have already asked these questions. However, if this is the response I will get from this forum then I have no other alternative. I will post the anwsers to my question if and when I get them. Thank for your help anyway.

4

I found a very detailed article about how Overseas Taiwanese can avoid being drafted here:

http://www.oriented.org/legal/ID-4.shtml

I also found a thread here at the Legal Forum that talks about the issue of whether Overseas Taiwanese men can be drafted when they come to Taiwan. Go here:

http://oriented.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=29&t=000137&p=

By the way, did you ask the Taiwanese de-facto Embassy yet, like Richard recommended? If so, I am very curious to know the answer that they gave you.

I’m an American living in Taiwan, but the reason why I’m so interested in the military conscription requirement is because hopefully one day in the not-too-distant future, foreigners living in Taiwan will no longer be required to renounce their original citizenship in order to become Taiwanese citizens.

However, about 90% of the Westerners in Taiwan are men between the ages of 18 and 45, and I’ve heard that every Taiwanese citizen between the ages of 18 and 45 has to serve in the military for two years except Overseas Taiwanese.

This website says that all overseas Taiwanese males are exempt from being drafted (as long as they don’t overstay their four-month visa). However, Richard Hartzell told me that if a foreign male becomes a Taiwanese citizen, then he must serve in the Taiwanese military for two years!

“Paogao” (who often writes in these forums) is the only Westerner I know who has become a Taiwanese citizen (because no one else has been willing to give up his/her original citizenship), and in fact, I remember reading at his homepage url=http://www.poagao.org/[/url] that in fact, he did serve in the Taiwanese military shortly after he become a Taiwanese citizen.

It seems extremely unfair to me that if someone is born overseas to Taiwanese parents or born in Taiwan but immigrates to another country before his 18th birthday, then he can come to Taiwan as often as he likes and will never get drafted as long as he doesn’t overstay his visa. But on the other hand, if a foreigner obtains Taiwanese citizenship, then he gets drafted immediately!

5

Well, I’ll try to clarify this too, these are the current stipulations:

ROC male citizens between age 18 and 40 役齡男子, living abroad with passport endorsed with Overseas Residence Status 僑居, can enter Taiwan for up to 4 month and exit the country, if you voilate this term 3 times, or if you stay over a year just once, you’ll be drafted, even if you have another citizenship and enter with such.

In order to get your passport endorsed with Overseas Residence Status 僑居, you’ll need to meet the following requirements:

  1. You left Taiwan by Dec 31st the year you turn 15

  2. You have lived abroad for over 4 years

  3. You have obtained the permanent residence or citizenship for at least 6 months by the time you apply for such endorsement.

  4. Your passport is standard ROC passport, not commercial, tourist, or student.

  5. You have never re-enter and re-exited during those periods. (if you do between 16 and 18 your passport will be stamped 尚未履行兵役義務 when you leave)

If you leave the country between 16 and 18 接近役齡男子, your passport will be stamped 尚未履行兵役義務, meaning “not fullfilled the military services”. When you have this mark on the passport, it’ll be very difficulty, if not impossible to get endorsement of Overseas Residence Status 僑居 on your passport.

In certain countries, the residency is renewed once every few yrs and our overseas office will still endorse 僑居. In the past, once people get this endorsement, they can come to live and work in Taiwan and go to Okinawa and Hong Kong every 4 months and reenter, when the passport is ready to expire, they just renew the passport, so to avoid the military services. THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE, when your passport expires, you’ll be required to get another one, to have the Overseas Residence Status 僑居 transfered to your new passport, you’ll have to show your current permanent residency, passport, or citizenship of your country of residence.

Most TECO offices in US are very candid about entry and exit requirements, anf if you can’t meet the requirement to get Overseas Residence Status 僑居 on your passport, they’ll advise you not to go back to Taiwan.

For more info, go to Taiwan’s Immigration page

http://www.immigration.gov.tw

A funny note on the Chinese page “drug addicts will be denied residency”

6

There’s one case which an ROC citizen can enter and leave Taiwan using foreign passport without military service requirement. If the person leaves Taiwan before the age of 14, he would not have had established household registration 戶籍, as long as he has the passport endorsement.

I found that the above site’s English version covers only subjects involving tourist visas, temp residency, etc.

7

Zaibach, I’ll try to answer your questions:

  1. Does the four month visa run rule still work?

YES and NO: When one enters Taiwan, you’ll go to the nearest Bereau of Immigration to apply for exit permit, they’ll give you exit permit valid for 4 months, during this period, you can enter and exit multiple times, good for travelling to neighboring countries. And No, as you reapply for another exit permit right after reentry, your passport will have showed your sojourns of entire 4 months continuously, the official may refuse to give you another exit permit after seeing you actually live here.

  1. If you stay past four months do they draft you immediately or do they just start counting? If they just start counting then how long do they count before they hunt you down and draft you?

They won’t immediately, unless this is your third offence or it goes over a year so they do count another 8 months, remember your exit permit is valid for only 4 months, violating such rule will force you to go to Bereau of Immigration to get another exit permit stamp, this is when they’ll start to watch your departure time.

  1. Did they change the rules? Does the one year cummulative rule apply now?

I checked the Chinese page and it hasn’t, if I notice any change, will update here.

8
quote[quote]There's one case which an ROC citizen can enter and leave Taiwan using foreign passport without military service requirement. If the person leaves Taiwan before the age of 14, he would not have had established household registration 戶籍, as long as he has the passport endorsement. [/quote]

Are you an ROC national? Your knowledge of the Household Registration Law is weak. ROC children can, and most generally do, obtain household registration shortly after birth.

I am also dismayed by the above postings which show a casual acceptance of legal regulations (in regard to military conscription) which delineate “different categories of citizens”, in clear violation of the equality clauses of the ROC Constitution.

9

Richard, my first post is exactly pasted from

http://www.immigration.gov.tw/home1.HTM
and it’s exactly the same rules stated when you visit any of the Taiwanese embassies or overseas offices.
[Moderator’s note: That website uses frames, so there is no unique web-page address for each page shown. Hence, I don’t know what page you are referring to.]

I may need to be a bit more specific about 2nd one, when a male reaches 14, he’ll receive the Taiwan ID card, this is the time your name is in conscription department. This is the case with my younger brother when we emmigrated abroad, he was only 11 and he never received a Taiwan ID card. He currently lives and works in Hong Kong and the last time he entered Taiwan he used a US passport (his ROC passport has expired in fact), but he only visits Taiwan for a few days with my parents once a while, so I may NOT be correct about overstaying. Household Registration (dif than ID card) may occur at birth, when you depart the country, it’s gone after 2 years and it does not relieve you from military services.

Do I approve of people going through loopholes and not getting drafted? Of course not, if you live in a country, earn a income, receive health care and other benefits, you’re required to fullfill the obligations, just like paying taxes and following other rules in USA, whether I agree with it or not. This is different case for those who’ve lived abroad for so many years and only come to Taiwan for short visits.

Oh, your last ??, yes, I’m ROC citizen, I’ve lived in the US since 1993, prior to that, Canada and Costa Rica.

10

Other than for the sake of convenience, why on earth would
you want to become an ROC citizen?

Lived here long enough. Tired of carrying around my “negro card”.
Want to be like everybody else.

You say everybody else only has one citizenship. Well, maybe if they want to be a minister of education, etc. but not otherwise.

11

RE: Dual nationality for foreigners.

It will take a massive lobbying effort. We will need to raise funds.

12

[Moderator’s note: That website uses frames, so there is no unique web-page address for each page shown. Hence, I don’t know what page you are referring to.]

Richard, refer to this page

question 2 on the FAQ page

http://www.immigration.gov.tw/faq/Faq102.htm

there’re a few ??? relevent to this on the main FAQ page

http://www.immigration.gov.tw/faq/faqindex.htm

13

I became an ROC citizen at age 36 or 37. But I did go the visit the MOI Draft office in Taichung. I was advised that after age 35 you will not be drafted for the miltiaty service… However you may get a lucky lotto draw for a two week boot camp for those in the 35- 45 years age bracket.

I’m 44 in August and still waiting for my 2 week fun and games trip…

14

Are they really allowed to do this?

I realize leaving the country every 4 months to avoid getting drafted is exploiting a loop-hole and morally wrong and so on and so on, but any way you look at it, it is still ‘legal’ isn’t it?

If they want to do something about the loop-hole they could just patch up the law or something. Isn’t refusing to stamp exit permits on someone’s passport kind of like taking the law into their own hands?

15

.

16

[quote=“Mark Nagel”]I found a very detailed article about how Overseas Taiwanese can avoid being drafted here:

http://www.oriented.org/legal/ID-4.shtml

“Poagao” (who often writes in these forums) is the only Westerner I know who has become a Taiwanese citizen (because no one else has been willing to give up his/her original citizenship), and in fact, I remember reading at his homepage url=http://www.poagao.org/[/url] that in fact, he did serve in the Taiwanese military shortly after he become a Taiwanese citizen.

It seems extremely unfair to me that if someone is born overseas to Taiwanese parents or born in Taiwan but immigrates to another country before his 18th birthday, then he can come to Taiwan as often as he likes and will never get drafted as long as he doesn’t overstay his visa. But on the other hand, if a foreigner obtains Taiwanese citizenship, then he gets drafted immediately![/quote]

I’m also a westerner who became an ROC National. But I didnt have to do military service. I was 38 when I got my ROC Nationality but wasn’t drafted. I went to the Military Draft office in Taichung and they told me that males over 35 are not usually drafted, and I havent been.

17

[quote=“twu026”]Maybe someone who has recently finished their military service can help me out.
I am an expat and I am comtemplating on returning to Taiwan to fulfill my military service. However, I am uncertain of what to expect if I do decide to return and join the military.
Most of my Taiwanese friends here (New Zealand) have no intention of returning to serve their time - they regard it equivalent to a prison sentence. I have also heard some pretty bad stories of discrimination, harassment and abuse of returning expat serving in the military.
Does anyone know the living conditions in the military?
Is harassment, abuse and corruption really as bad as people say it is?
Are things improving?

Any info would be much appreciated.[/quote]

My wife’s brother has been drafted at 27 years of age after being told he wouldnt be, as he is the only son and the father is deceased.

Apart from that after being drafted he took the officer candidate test and is now on Officer Traning. He’s not had any problems, even though he’s aboriginal. A lad who got on the bus with him in CHiayi fled, was caught, given 6 months in the military slammer and still has to finish his service after the sentence.

Guess you’ll have to grin and bear it… PS If you’ve got tertiary qualifications you may go into the officer school