Coordinated multiple attacks in Paris

Politics International Politics
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[quote=“MikeN”][quote=“Winston Smith”]What exactly did the Coalition of the Willing expect would happen when it took sides in the thousand year religious war between Zionism and Wahhabism? That religious zealots would play fair and stay on side?
[/quote]

Wahabbism: Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab 1703-1792; pact with ibn Saud to establish salafism (Wahhabism) as official Saudi doctrine, 1744.

Zionism:

Wiki

Between the end of the Third Jewish-Roman War in 136 AD, and the Arab-Israeli war of 1948, there haven’t been any Zionist/Jewish wars against anyone, because the Jews didn’t have any land to defend.

As well, they were too busy trying to avoid the oft-murderous attentions of Dar al-Islam and Christendom. Those two indeed were/are engaged in a thousand-year-plus war (on and off); the Jews were basically used as scapegoats by both sides.

And just a note to anyone, it’s “mother-lode” , from gold-mining.[/quote]

The religious war between The Caliphate and Eretz Israel hasn’t, of course, been going on for a thousand years. It will go on for another thousand years and a few surges and bombing campaigns aren’t going to put a dent in it. You just have to wonder at the profound naivete of the Coalition of the Willing though when there are a billion plus of them and a half billion of us and we’re mired in a clash of civilizations.

The fact is that once you take sides in a thousand year religious war the only place you’ll find refuge from the uniquely suicidal passions and hatred unleashed by religious war is behind the mile high walls of a police atate in which democracy and civil liberties are unaffordable luxuries. Genocide, ethnic cleansing and merciless destruction are the only “surges” which have any lasting effect in such a war if you’re willing to sell your soul for your religious beliefs.

42

[quote=“Winston Smith”]Unlike other prophets there’s nothing in the words of Jesus Christ which encourages people to kill for religion or God, unless I’ve missed something. Christianity is predicated on the belief that what was acceptable under the Old Testament is no longer acceptable under the New Testament so conflating the two isn’t accurate, despite countless examples of self-proclaimed Christians who have – and continue to – do just that in their actions and statements.

[quote]Matthew 19:7
“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Mark 10:5
“It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.[/quote][/quote]
You may have missed something. You may be wrong. It’s all in how you interpret that book. Above are some quotes from Matthew. How about one more:

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till
heaven and earth pass, one jot or one
tittle shall in no wise pass from
the law, till all be fulfilled.

Just to add some context, the above follows Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

I interpret this as Jesus saying that He is not here to change one comma or period or diacritical mark of any sort from the old laws of the Old Testament. How do you interpret it?

Do you ignore the Ten Commandments? That’s “old school.”

It’s hard to get worse than the Old Testament, with all the genocide. What’s worse than God killing all the people and animals on earth, save for Noah’s family and a pair of each critter?
Nothing could be worse than that! Unless, maybe, the idea in the New Testament, that anyone who doesn’t believe this will be tortured forever and ever and ever, Amen. That’s “new school.”

I think that Islam needs to undergo some sort of reformation like Christianity has. It’s best if it’s done from the inside, by Moslems. The Koran / Hadith do have a few things that make them very dangerous. The ideas of Jihad with Holy War, and the idea that not a jot or tittle of this perfect book may be changed are some bad ideas that are hard to change. The idea that committing suicide for your faith is the greatest thing you can do (and that it’s like a golden ticket to a better world) creates some desperate people who can not be reasoned with or fought in a traditional way. Maybe moderate Moslems can get all Moslems to agree to interpret Jihad as an inner struggle. Isn’t that the key to a reformation that will eliminate suicide boomers?

Looking at Pew (and other) surveys of religious beliefs in the Moslem world makes it seem that there are more radicals than some are willing to admit. Still, few are willing to give their lives for their faith. I guess only a small fraction of one percent of believers are willing to kill others (and sometimes themselves) for infractions against their good book. With a billion and a half adherents, thank Allah for that.

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I’m always so surprised when intelligent people can’t distinguish the difference between Jesus and Muhammad. It’s almost as if they haven’t actually read the Quran and Hadith. :ponder: Their stance that somehow the ideas behind Christianity and Islam are equivalent, and the life examples of the people central to those religions are somehow morally equal is completely false. Jesus and Muhammad aren’t the same guy with different names. They are different people, with radically different views and life examples.

Nobody would be tempted to try to equate the ideas of Buddhism and Scientology. We aren’t arguing to try to equate the ideas of Christianity and Jainism. Nobody is tempted to say the ideas of Islam and Quakers are equally benign. But for some reason, western liberals can’t bring themselves to acknowledge the stark differences between the teachings of Jesus and those of Muhammad, and the real world consequences of those beliefs.

There is no equivalent in the Bible for martyrdom and Jihad or Sharia Law, and there are no examples of Jesus carrying out any of those ideals in practise. This is an important distinction. Despite what’s written in the old testament (which is horrible) Jesus never endorsed any of that and never did any of those acts. Unfortunately for the impressionable minds of the next 1300 years, Muhammad did endorse and actually personally commit those acts.

And it’s this failure to recognize and name the problem directly that leads to generalizations of ALL Muslims. I really love Maagid Nawaz’s coining of the “Voldemort effect” we are seeing with western liberals. They are so terrified of the problem that they refuse to even acknowledge it exists. They can’t even say his name. It’s he who cannot be named.

But if you don’t name the problem, fuck head bigots will just say ALL Muslims which obviously couldn’t be further from the truth. Muslims have a beautiful culture, a long and rich history, family and community oriented people, the vast majority are great. Islamists on the other hand are not compatible with 21st century society, and it’s helpful to name them out loud. It is not helpful to be PC at this time. That set of beliefs needs to be destroyed, and it’s the nearly billion and a half peaceful moderate Muslims as well as secular humanists (and western liberals) that need to do it. What’s wrong with drawing a big red circle around the problem so we can expedite the process of marginalizing and reforming those ideas to conform with 21st century society? It worked for Christianity, but it took hundreds of years. In this day in age with social media and globalization, it could be quick.

45

Indeed, and it’s not like it’s been thrown away or disavowed. God is still God–he did those things, and although there are plenty of independent New Testaments around, those books are still part of the Bible and “God’s Word” the last time I looked. If I have to start interpreting why we shouldn’t take seriously parts of this self-proclaimed holy book, then I might do the same for any other book.

46

Agreed, but with respect, hopefully you do the courtesy of reading it before interpreting it.

And the fact that the Quran and Hadith do say all those things about martyrdom, Jihad, Sharia, and killing infidels to gain paradise and the Bible and Jesus don’t, just makes me respect Muslims as people even more. The fact that the religion they subscribe to lays out in black and white scripture as well as the life example of their most revered prophet a plausible justification for the acts we saw in Paris, yet the vast majority of the Muslim world is still peaceful. It’s amazing and should be respected. Can you imagine how much Christian violence we’d still be seeing if Jesus lived a similar life to Muhammad? Beyond just believing in him, if there were also further rewards for killing in his name? Excuse the pun, but jesus that would be troublesome.

The messenger of God and perfect human being did all those horrible things himself, yet the vast majority of the Muslim world is still peaceful. It’s ironic, but the more you read and understand the Quran and Hadith, the MORE respect you gain for Muslims. And the more perspective you gain on the magnitude of the internal struggle within their communities. It makes you want to help the refugees MORE, not less. It makes you want to take in all those who are fleeing the madness in their home countries MORE, not less. It makes you call out the problem by name, so that you can provide a lexicon for all the moderates to escape the unfortunate facts about their holy books and how easy it is to interpret them in a Bin Laden type of way rather than the more peaceful early days of Muhammad which a lot of peaceful Muslims will point to.

47

The Quran obviously encourages to kill non-believers, just read a few random verset and it’s quite clear:
noblequran.com/translation/
You said it’s the same in the Bible, may be, but not in the one I had to read and was educated with, the scary one is not in the education not in the minds of 99,9999% of christians.

The problem is not what is writtten in these books, but how seriously these books are taken by believers. Just do a simple test as I did. Ask a few muslim friends if they prefer having to kill someone or burn a Quran? Do the same with a Christian and the Bible, the answers will be very different (and quite scaring when you see somebody you know well, with high education, prefering to cause death than ashes).

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BrentGolf is killing it with truth bombs. Support Dave Rubin and the Rubin Report. Lets take back the left from the apologists and the regressives. The amount of handwringing and apologetics all over social media is making me sick. The issue is Isis. The Bible is horrible but the Quran is worse. Muhammed wasnt a bearded hippy, he was a warlord. At one point Islam supprted reason, logic and science but the last 800 years has gone down the rocky road of literalism and fundamentalism. We have to support the moderates and the reformers like Maajid Nawaaz. We have a problem.

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I don’t think Mohammad comes even close when it comes to violence in religious texts.

Hebrew (jewish) Bible:

skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/ot_list.html

Talmud quotes :

  • “If a ‘goy’ (Gentile) hits a Jew he must be killed.” (Sanhedrin 58b)

& ALL CHRISTIANS

  • “‘Yashu’ (derogatory for ‘Jesus’) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.” (Gittin 57a)

[’Yashu’ is an acronym for the Jewish curse, ‘May his (Jesus) name be wiped out forevermore.’]

  • Yashu (Jesus) was sexually immoral and worshipped a brick.” (Sanhedrin 107b)

  • “Yashu (Jesus) was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness and refused to repent.” (Sotah 47a)

  • “Miriam the hairdresser had sex with many men.” (Shabbath 104b, Hebrew Edition only)

  • “She who was the descendant of princes and governors (the virgin Mary) played the harlot with carpenters.” (Sanhedrin 106a)

  • “Christians who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.” (Rosh Hashanah 17a)

  • “If a Jew finds an object lost by a ‘goy’ it does not have to be returned.” (Baba Mezia 24a)

  • “If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)

  • What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)

  • “Jews may use subterfuges to circumvent a ‘goy.’” (Baba Kamma 113a)

  • “All children of the ‘goyim’ (Gentiles) are animals.” (Yebamoth 98a)

  • “Girls born of the ‘goyim’ are in a state of ‘niddah’ (menstrual uncleanness!) from birth.” (Abodah Zarah 36b)

  • “The ‘goyim’ are not humans. They are beasts.” (Baba Mezia 114b)

  • “If you eat with a ‘goy’ it is the same as eating with a dog.” (Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b)

  • “Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)

  • “Sexual intercourse between the ‘goyim’ is like intercourse between animals.” (Sanhedrin 74b)

  • “When it comes to a Gentile in peace times, one may harm him indirectly, for instance, by removing a ladder after he had fallen into a crevice.” (Shulkan Arukh, Yoreh De ‘ah, 158, Hebrew Edition only)

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Jesus Christ. You can’t just read the New Testament. Read the words of the most famous church leaders and scholars such as St Augustine and you will see plenty of arguments for killing non-believers.

In any case, I don’t think Christianity is currently the threat Islam is for the simple reason Christianity is constrained by liberal democratic systems, and cultures of tolerance and enlightenment values, in most places it exists. Where these constraints do not exist we see plenty of brutality in the name of God.

Islam is a problem generally because it exists in authoritative states. But even the most liberal Muslim states, such as Malaysia, are sliding backwards with respect to freedoms.

Ah you may say, then why are radicals coming from western countries? Because we do a really good job of alienating enough people that they turn against society. I would bet that a lot of the white guys who end up mass murdering in the US would now be in Syria if they were brown skinned.

Muslims are ill served by their leaders. But the number of Muslims attracted to radicalism is vanishingly small. Focusing on Islam them, as a Motherload of bad ideas, if a motherload of ill-conceived bullshit. It offers no help in understanding how to stem the tide of conservative violent Islamic forces.

Anyway, for me, when I look at the world’s problems, I count market ideology as the biggest threat to our way of life. A hundred years from now it will be unreformed capitalism (through environmental destruction) that destroyed civilization, if it is destroyed, not Islam.

How many species have been lost because of Islam? How many deserts created? How many rivers made lifeless? How many forests felled? How much global warming has Islam contributed to? I don’t mean Muslims, but Islam, as an ideology. The fact remains that it is our own ideology of free markets that is killing the planet. Our western values.

Violent radical Islamists are obviously a threat, so are Hell’s Angels, but they are so far down the worries I have for the future.

51

[quote=“Mucha Man”]Jesus Christ. You can’t just read the New Testament. Read the words of the most famous church leaders and scholars such as St Augustine and you will see plenty of arguments for killing non-believers.

In any case, I don’t think Christianity is currently the threat Islam is for the simple reason Christianity is constrained by liberal democratic systems, and cultures of tolerance and enlightenment values, in most places it exists. Where these constraints do not exist we see plenty of brutality in the name of God.

Islam is a problem generally because it exists in authoritative states. But even the most liberal Muslim states, such as Malaysia, are sliding backwards with respect to freedoms.

Ah you may say, then why are radicals coming from western countries? Because we do a really good job of alienating enough people that they turn against society. I would bet that a lot of the white guys who end up mass murdering in the US would now be in Syria if they were brown skinned.

Muslims are ill served by their leaders. But the number of Muslims attracted to radicalism is vanishingly small. Focusing on Islam them, as a Motherload of bad ideas, if a motherload of ill-conceived bullshit. It offers no help in understanding how to stem the tide of conservative violent Islamic forces.

Anyway, for me, when I look at the world’s problems, I count market ideology as the biggest threat to our way of life. A hundred years from now it will be unreformed capitalism (through environmental destruction) that destroyed civilization, if it is destroyed, not Islam.

How many species have been lost because of Islam? How many deserts created? How many rivers made lifeless? How many forests felled? How much global warming has Islam contributed to? I don’t mean Muslims, but Islam, as an ideology. The fact remains that it is our own ideology of free markets that is killing the planet. Our western values.

Violent radical Islamists are obviously a threat, so are Hell’s Angels, but they are so far down the worries I have for the future.[/quote]

If they get hold of nuclear weapons, they will be the top of every list.

52

Indonesia 196 million - No War
Pakistan 192 million - no war
India 155 million - no war
Bangladesh 130 million - no war
China 100 million no war
US 6.6 million- no war
Canada 1.2

Seem only in the Middle East is there a problem wars and extremism. I wonder if there is a common denominator ?

War and radicalization is a direct result of western/NATO invasions and bombing . This is not rocket science or even debatable. And the scary part id our governments are not finished yet.

53

[quote=“Winston Smith”]
The religious war between The Caliphate and Eretz Israel hasn’t, of course, been going on for a thousand years. It will go on for another thousand years and a few surges and bombing campaigns aren’t going to put a dent in it. You just have to wonder at the profound naivete of the Coalition of the Willing though when there are a billion plus of them and a half billion of us and we’re mired in a clash of civilizations.

The fact is that once you take sides in a thousand year religious war the only place you’ll find refuge from the uniquely suicidal passions and hatred unleashed by religious war is behind the mile high walls of a police atate in which democracy and civil liberties are unaffordable luxuries. Genocide, ethnic cleansing and merciless destruction are the only “surges” which have any lasting effect in such a war if you’re willing to sell your soul for your religious beliefs.[/quote]

There has been a millennium-old-war going on between Islam and Christianity- or more correctly Dar al-Islam and Christendom- until Christianity (mostly) faded out as a justification for the West, to be replaced by greed and liberalism- “Take up the White Man’s Burden”- which was not specifically directed at the Muslim world. The Jews were too weak to be a part of this, except for getting stomped like grapes when one side or the other got pissed off and decided to launch a pogrom. The rest of the the time they were allowed to live in the cracks, as long as they didn’t get too uppity and demand equality with Christians or Muslims.

The other thousand-year-old war is the one between Shia and Sunni, still going strong. The US and allies thought they were toppling a local tyrant, and in that case didn’t realize the potential of the local hatreds they’d unleashed.

OTOH, this is still a ragged-ass band in the desert who can kill a few people in the West through terror attacks, but aren’t any particular kind of existential threat a la the Nazis or Soviet Union.

Prediction: Putin and Obama come to an agreement to ease Assad out in exchange for concessions to the Russians for military bases; a “moderate” coalition is put in place, held in power by foreign military force; ISIS is isolated and pushed out of most of their territory in Syria and -eventually- Iraq. Ten years from now they’ll be a footnote- though Islamic extremism will continue to be a problem for a generation.

Was flipping through a stash of TIME magazines from the 80s a friend had. The covers were dominated by crises like “The Horn of Africa”- Russians taking over Ethiopia and Somalia- “Red Tide in Central America”- Sandanistas, natch- “Crescent of Crisis”- the Soviet domination of the Middle East through control of Syria and Iraq- and of course “Terror Inc.” The latter in particular; it was a Reagan-era term was about the organised web of Red terrorists from the Provos to the Red Brigades to the PLA to the Japanese Red Army which were going to sweep away the decadent West.

That hysteria was in turn swept away by the threat of Islamic Jihad, the Iranian-backed terrorism which was going to wash away the moderates in the Middle East and establish a Shiite empire controlled by the Ayatollah. That was fuelled by the Marine barracks and Kuwait bombings of 1983- little did we know just over twenty years later a US president would oversee the installation of one of those involved in the planning as Prime Minister of Iraq.

Another interesting read in context is “One Summer- America 1927” by Bill Bryson- the number of attacks and murders committed by anarchists in those decades was amazing.

So, perspective- ISIS can be placed in a long string of nuisances- but that’s it.

(Some of the above crises actually were scary- but that’s because they were backed by a party with thousands of nuclear warheads capable of hitting us in minutes- when ISIS develops that capacity, we can start to worry.

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[quote=“agentsmith”][quote=“agentsmith”]Indonesia 196 million - No War
Pakistan 192 million - no war
India 155 million - no war
Bangladesh 130 million - no war
China 100 million no war
US 6.6 million- no war
Canada 1.2

Seem only in the Middle East is there a problem wars and extremism. I wonder if there is a common denominator ?[/quote]

War and radicalization is a direct result of western/NATO invasions and bombing . This is not rocket science or even debatable. And the scary part id our governments are not finished yet.[/quote]

That is ridiculous and ethnocentric. Get over yourself America, its not always about you!

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mother-LODE

because the world needs more grammar fascists (I’m not anti-semitic, so I can’t be a grammar Nazi).

56

[quote=“OrangeOrganics”][quote=“Mucha Man”]Jesus Christ. You can’t just read the New Testament. Read the words of the most famous church leaders and scholars such as St Augustine and you will see plenty of arguments for killing non-believers.

In any case, I don’t think Christianity is currently the threat Islam is for the simple reason Christianity is constrained by liberal democratic systems, and cultures of tolerance and enlightenment values, in most places it exists. Where these constraints do not exist we see plenty of brutality in the name of God.

Islam is a problem generally because it exists in authoritative states. But even the most liberal Muslim states, such as Malaysia, are sliding backwards with respect to freedoms.

Ah you may say, then why are radicals coming from western countries? Because we do a really good job of alienating enough people that they turn against society. I would bet that a lot of the white guys who end up mass murdering in the US would now be in Syria if they were brown skinned.

Muslims are ill served by their leaders. But the number of Muslims attracted to radicalism is vanishingly small. Focusing on Islam them, as a Motherload of bad ideas, if a motherload of ill-conceived bullshit. It offers no help in understanding how to stem the tide of conservative violent Islamic forces.

Anyway, for me, when I look at the world’s problems, I count market ideology as the biggest threat to our way of life. A hundred years from now it will be unreformed capitalism (through environmental destruction) that destroyed civilization, if it is destroyed, not Islam.

How many species have been lost because of Islam? How many deserts created? How many rivers made lifeless? How many forests felled? How much global warming has Islam contributed to? I don’t mean Muslims, but Islam, as an ideology. The fact remains that it is our own ideology of free markets that is killing the planet. Our western values.

Violent radical Islamists are obviously a threat, so are Hell’s Angels, but they are so far down the worries I have for the future.[/quote]

If they get hold of nuclear weapons, they will be the top of every list.[/quote]

We dealt with a Chinese government with nuclear weapons run by an absolute madman: we can deal with a ME country having one too.

Of course that was when they were dirt poor. Right now China, the world’s second largest economy, is modernizing its military and aggressively expanding territory, a move which is increasingly drawing the US into making countermoves. This is not going to end well but yeah, crazy guys in a sliver of the world’s landmass are the real issue. :unamused:

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China are not going to drop a nuclear bomb on America. They wont. They just wont. Isis will.

58

I’m not American. While I would not like this to happen, really, it isn’t the end of civilization if it does.

As for China, they will not stand for US dominance in the region for much longer. How do you think that is going to end?

As for global warming, I think this is going to kill far more over the next 100 years than ISIS.

Prioritize your worries. :wink:

59

[quote]There has been a millennium-old-war going on between Islam and Christianity- or more correctly Dar al-Islam and Christendom- until Christianity (mostly) faded out as a justification for the West, to be replaced by greed and liberalism- “Take up the White Man’s Burden”- which was not specifically directed at the Muslim world. The Jews were too weak to be a part of this, except for getting stomped like grapes when one side or the other got pissed off and decided to launch a pogrom. The rest of the the they were allowed to live in the cracks, as long as they didn’t get too uppity.

The other thousand-year-old war is the one between Shia and Sunni, still going strong. The US and allies thought they were toppling a local tyrant, and in that case didn’t realize the potential local hatreds they’d unleashed.[/quote]

That is absolute propaganda bullshit. Shame on you and your one sided narrative designed to support islamophobia. From the spanish inquisition to modern day Islam has protected both jews and christians more often than not. Infact the jews and muslims were great neighbors and friends in Palestine before the zionist movement took over. Many leading rabbis and the people living in Palestine did not want this racist movement lead by militant jews to enter Palestine and even lobbied the UN against the partition plan.

Before the US and cohorts invaded the ME all religions lived in relative peace especially in Syria ,Iran and Iraq.

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LOL well I can see the US,Sauds ,turkey and Israel supplying them with arms ,logistical support and buying their oil on the black market but somehow I don’t think they will give them the bomb.