Thanks for clarification.
But, I completely disagree with your assessment.
Fuck the anti-vaxxers. Let 'em all roll the dice and die or recover.
No no no. This is commie talk. They have rights and no one has the right to tell them what to do with their bodies.
And businesses have the right to demand vaccine certificates before entering their business or before employment.
Make life as unbearable again for them. I hope they literally canât do anythingâno bars, no sporting events, no employment, no flights.
Many high risk people are still waiting for their opportunity to get vaccinated.
And many high risk people are refusing the opportunity to get vaccinated. Thus dragging this whole thing out longer as it is them who will overwhelm the hospitals because they canât cope with it when/if they get infected.
Itâs not difficult to grasp.
Nation almost fully vaccinated = 
Nation full of antivaxxers refusing to get the jab = 
Is this just for covid19?
Correct. You donât want to be vaccinated, find another airline to fly on, find another restaurant to eat in, find another supermarket to shop in. Their businesses, their rules.
More dangerous commie / authoritarian speak here. Canât agree with this. I donât live in China.
Yeah, weâre not battling a cholera pandemic at the moment.
One example:
Itâs also very likely that the vaccines reduce rates of spread, perhaps quite significantly. Brown University School of Public Health dean Ashish Jha succinctly summarized what I heard from experts time and again over the past week: âVaccinated people are far far far less likely to spread the virus than unvaccinated people.â Since vaccinated people are less likely to get infected by the virus to begin with, theyâre less likely to spread it to others, too.
Source:
Also:
We know that vaccines are incredibly good at preventing people from becoming ill with the virus and getting clinical COVID-19. We also know that if they do become infected, and maybe not even have symptoms, or have mild symptoms, that theyâre probably less likely to transmit it. So, vaccines are also good at reducing transmission. I donât want to undersell the vaccines here.
Source:
A bit more specifically on the Delta variant and how thatâs changing things (i.e. it looks much more likely with this variant that vaccinated people may spread it):
If Iâm vaccinated, can I transmit Delta to others?
The C.D.C. believes itâs possible. Although vaccinated people are less likely to become infected by Delta than those who are unvaccinated, those who do contract the virus may carry just as much of the virus in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people, Dr. Walensky said this week.
âDelta variant vaccine breakthrough cases may be as transmissible as unvaccinated cases,â the internal C.D.C. document said.
Source:
Iâve tried to answer your objections with facts - which youâve twisted into unrecognizable shapes like a drunk balloon man at a kidâs party - and Iâve asked you a few questions in return which youâre completely unable to answer. So Iâm going to conclude for now that youâre not really thinking hard about any of this and are content to repeat whatever the newspapers tell you.
lock up kids until they become old enough to get vaccinated?
Arenât you afraid that, at some point, itâs going to be demonstrated as incontrovertible fact that vaccinated hosts are performing a gain-of-function process on the SARS-CoV-2 virus, and that vaccinated individuals should therefore be permanently isolated to ensure the safety of humanity?
This is probably not far off. Once people are pressured into vaccination by being barred from the supermarket, and there are only a few diehard holdouts and babies left unjabbed, COVID will still be running wild and youâll have nobody left to blame. At that point, even the brainwashed will start to smell a rat.
When youâve decided to inflict violence upon some designated scapegoat, the ultimate outcome all hinges, really, on how many of them there are, and how many of you. Donât imagine everyone will just walk willingly into the cattle-wagons.
I was responding mostly to Finleyâs quote here. I think he was wrong that itâs been barely touched by Covid and then also wrong about deaths and economic impact.
Sweden had a lower excess death spike in 2020 than most European countries. Its economic impact was only due to its trading partners locking down.
However, Sweden was definitely touched by Covid.
Sure! Itâs from Canada, and itâs behind a paywell, but Iâll post the contents again for you.
More to follow.
Guy
Letâs be crystal clear about one thing from the outset: Vaccinated people are not as likely to get and spread the coronavirus as unvaccinated people. Not even remotely so. What is true is that in the rare instance someone has a breakthrough infection, they can spread the virus as readily. That is very different. And itâs leaving the false impression that COVID-19 vaccines donât work.
In fact, vaccines are working remarkably well, even against the new curveballs thrown at them.
Initially, studies showed the COVID-19 vaccines to be up to 95 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic disease.
In the real world, that number â not unexpectedly â dropped a bit, to about 89 per cent against what we now call the Alpha variant.
Against the more transmissible Delta, effectiveness is still an impressive 79 per cent, according to figures from Public Health England, which does some of the worldâs most extensive postmarket surveillance.
Vaccines are not perfect. Nobody claimed they would be.
You can, in rare instances, still be infected by the coronavirus if you have had two shots. You can, theoretically, infect others.
But, again, we have to keep these unusual occurrences in perspective.
The reality is that, in the vast majority of cases, unvaccinated people are infecting unvaccinated people. Sometimes they are infecting vaccinated people, too.
And, yes, vaccinated people can infect unvaccinated people. Itâs not clear how likely that is.
As for vaccinated people infecting other vaccinated people? Thatâs about as likely as spotting a white moose.
What we need to understand a little better is why these breakthrough infections are occurring. (They are called âbreakthroughâ because they break through the protection vaccines provide.)
Behaviour certainly matters. If you are in a crowd with a lot of infected people, the odds are worse.
Dose matters, too: If you interact with someone with a really high viral load, that also increases your risk. So does the Delta variant, which is more infectious.
Still, we should not be unduly alarmed by research that shows, for example, that vaccinated people have as much virus in their nose as unvaccinated ones. We have all kinds of bugs up our nose all the time; itâs a key part of our immune system. That doesnât indicate infectiousness or danger.
We know that when vaccinated people do get infected, they are less likely to develop symptoms, be hospitalized or die.
Donât be duped by the ânewsâ that infections and hospitalizations are up among the vaccinated. Of course they are. A lot of people are getting vaccinated.
But, relatively, way fewer vaccinated people are ending up sick or in hospital and, here, relativity matters.
The pandemic has become a pandemic of the unvaccinated.
Recent Ontario figures tell this story eloquently. Between June 12 and July 21, the unvaccinated made up 95.7 per cent of new COVID-19 cases, 97.4 per cent of hospitalizations, 99.5 per cent of intensive care admissions, and 95.8 per cent of deaths. (These numbers come from COVID-19 datacruncher extraordinaire Dr. Jennifer Kwan.)
Data out of the U.S. about breakthrough infections are also quite telling. Between Jan. 1 and April 30, there were 10,262 breakthrough infections recorded among 11.8 million infections.
Thatâs the story we have to retain: If you are fully vaccinated, you have a minimal chance of getting infected, getting sick or dying of COVID-19.
Thatâs why there is such a push for vaccine mandates (making vaccination mandatory for certain workers, such as nurses and personal support workers), vaccine certificates (proof of vaccination that allows you to visit public spaces including restaurants and sports venues) and vaccine passports (documentation of immunization that allows you to travel to other countries).
So if vaccines work so well, and a lot of people are now vaccinated (about 23 million Canadians have both shots), why are publichealth officials reluctant to lift restrictions and, in some cases, still urging vaccinated people to wear masks?
Itâs not because the vaccines donât work. Itâs because we want to protect the vulnerable, especially those who canât yet get the shot, such as children, and those who are immunocompromised.
The real breakthrough we need to concern ourselves with is convincing a sufficiently large percentage of the population â 80 per cent or more â to get their shots so that we can virtually stop the coronavirus from spreading in our communities.
The six million Canadians who have still not got their shots need to be our focus, not the small number of vaccinated ones who could theoretically spread the virus.
I think people keep just making stuff up and then when theyâre called on it they change the subject. Sweden faired much worse than its neighbors: Nordics: coronavirus deaths 2023 | Statista
edited to add: this was meant to reply to BDâs comment on how much better Sweden did than other European countries.
Youâre just twisting stuff to suit your beliefs.
In terms of COVID deaths-per-capita, Sweden ranks somewhere around #30 on a global scale. Not terrible and not great. The fact remains that their age-adjusted mortality rate was about the lowest ever in 2020 for quite a while. In other words, COVID did not kill people who were not already at the end of their expected lifespan.
My argument is, and has been all along, that you canât âcontrolâ a virus. Itâs gonna do what itâs gonna do, and the evidence from 2020 bears this out: while there are variations in death rates, hospitalisations, etc between countries, those variations are not explained by any political decisions that were made. The underlying causes of the difference is essentially unknown.
As for making stuff up, I assume youâre prepared to refute the idea that vaccinating people en masse puts potentially-dangerous selection pressure on the virus?
Sweden had a lower excess death spike in 2020 than most European countries. Its economic impact was only due to its trading partners locking down.
You read that as
BDâs comment on how much better Sweden did than other European countries.
What do you believe I am arguing here? Iâm just interested to know as I like to comprehend situations and people.
I think you were arguing that Sweden had a lower death spike than most European countries in 2020, and I think Sweden did worse than its neighbors, with little benefit economically.
