Coronavirus Open Thread 2021

The Mayo coroner claims without furnishing any statistics himself …

He elaborated: “In reality, a lot of people have terminal cancer or multiple other serious co-morbidities.'.

In Public Health England stats those who had cancer and had deaths finally attributed was not a significant amount of people. Why would Ireland be different ?

As for people with other underlying diseases that died from covid, yeah there are many. Does that mean they would have died tomorrow or this year or next year? No!

The report from Kildare is simply echoing the situation in England.

In a report published last week, Kildare coroner Dr Denis Cusack presents evidence that 99pc of the 230 Covid-related deaths in Kildare to date had underlying conditions.

“The associated or underlying medical conditions reported in the 230 persons who died directly from Covid-19 or whose death had Covid-19 as a contributory cause were taken from the original reports to the coroner detailing clinical conditions,” Dr Cusack’s report states.

> Of the 230 deaths notified, 228 (99pc) had underlying conditions: 132 (57pc) cardiovascular (including hypertension); 120 (52pc) dementia; 58 (25pc) respiratory; 36 (16pc) oncological; 30 (13pc) neurological; 25 (11pc) diabetes; and 23 (10pc) renal.

Take the mention of hypertension above. It turns out almost every old person has hypertension.

According to an article published by the American College of Cardiology, geriatric cardiologists should start preparing to care for patients in their 80s, 90s and beyond, as life expectancy continues to rise. With hypertension occurring in up to 80 percent of people over the age of 60, physicians have their work cut out for them in caring for this aging population.

Same for CVD. Almost all over 80s have heart disease.

If the covid deaths (all people over 50 practically ) did not have underlying chronic diseases that would be fake data.

They aren’t pretending anything . That’s your own conspiracy theory mindset.

The PHE obviously will have some error bars built into their estimate.

Except for infectious disease induced deaths we shouldnt see any big bumps month to month in deaths. ?

Why would the expected deaths be expected to jump up end of Jan-Feb-March 2021 in the UK ?

Answer? It’s not expected. Its caused by a covid pandemic peak.

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Or simply full of sh&t? :upside_down_face:

Guy

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You seem to be suffering from the same problem as cake, then - you think this guy is “honest” and “telling it like it is” and that these are “simple facts” because that’s what you already wanted to believe.

So focus on that and ignore all the rest, yeah? It’s definitely cherry picking, whether you want to see it or not. :man_shrugging:

And lol at believing that it’s brave for him to keep doing that. :laughing:

Do you still believe SARS was fake as well? 'Nuff said. :man_facepalming:

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I’m not arguing that they didn’t. I’m merely pointing out (as I have many times before) that those peaks are time-shifted. Deaths that might have occurred later have been shuffled together into peaks. Some deaths will have been shifted a lot; some, a little. There is no other way that “excess deaths” can occur - you can’t magic dead people out of nowhere.

COVID-19 doesn’t kill healthy people. There is no debate about this. The inescapable conclusion is that almost all of those people who died in 2020 were going to die fairly soon. The only question here is “how soon?”. If you see a large “excess” in a given 12-month period, the implication is that some deaths have been brought forwards by more than 12 months.

Dying ‘of COVID’ implies that your life was drastically foreshortened. Dying ‘with COVID’ implies that it was not.

It’s also important to remember that other things besides COVID would have killed (vulnerable) people in 2020. We know, for example, that many more people died of heart attacks simply because hospitals were shut down. Their deaths will appear as “excess”. But they were not killed by COVID.

I’ll reiterate that the concept of an “expected deaths” is a fiction, predicated on the idea that what happened last year ought also to happen this year … and if it doesn’t happen as projected, then something has gone horribly wrong. Have a think about that; it’s a pretty strange philosophical position, because it implies that our duty in life is to endlessly predict, observe, and correct reality to match our predictions. That is, our predictions come to define what is (or ought to be) real, however foolish those predictions might be.

Bottom line is that “expected deaths” is not a number. It cannot be ‘accurate’ or ‘inaccurate’. Whether you think any given figure is plausible depends on your assumptions and biases.

Anyway.

Have a look at the raw data for the year: PHE are claiming 98,000 excess deaths over the March20-March21 period, and 127,000 people dying “of or with” COVID-19.

Well, that in itself looks pretty odd. How can excess deaths be lower than the number who died “of or with” COVID? One possible explanation is that something happened in 2020 that caused the natural death rate to be much lower than it was in previous years, ie., the real figure for expected deaths (which we cannot know directly) was lower than the estimated/modelled figure. COVID-19 then killed an additional 127k people. This is the simplistic media presentation.

But that’s probably not what happened. Some events in 2020 would have resulted in a lower-than-usual natural death rate (eg., fewer flu infections). Some would have resulted in a higher-than-usual death rate (eg., restricted access to therapy for treatable disases). We cannot model any of this stuff accurately: as I said earlier, all we can do is bear in mind that ‘expected deaths’ for any given week is a probability distribution, not a scalar.

Now, pull up the PHE data and total up ‘Deaths with COVID-19 as the Underlying Cause’. You get 248k, ie., twice the number of declared COVID deaths. And people can die of many more things than the diseases listed here. The reason for the discrepancy is obvious: when people die, they die with multiple problems. Usually. There’s a lot of double-counting in these figures.

So when you look at the diabetes data and see “28265 excess deaths” alongside “23678 COVID-19 deaths” you might conclude that an abnormal number of diabetics died and that they were (nearly) all killed by COVID-19. And you’d be wrong.

Someone who dies with diabetes usually doesn’t die of diabetes, nor does he only have diabetes. Each of those diabetics who died would have had several contributory causes listed on their death certificates - in other words, his existence may register in any of the other disease rows, and the fact of his death may also register in any of the other rows. In fact you can see this in the PHE charts: diabetics who die invariably have ‘other causes’ or ‘COVID’ listed as the primary cause of death.

I’m struggling to find a way to tease out all this overlap in an intuitively-meaningful way which is still “true”. It’s a kind of inverse problem, and it’s impossible to compute an accurate backprojection from the given data.

Perhaps we can consider diabetics in three categories:

  1. People who have advanced, chronic, untreated metabolic syndrome (which would include diabetes) and have a shortened life expectancy;
  2. The same as (1) but an older age group, with a very short life expectancy;
  3. People who are diabetic but do not have any serious complications and are not at any immediate risk of death.

People in category (2) have a very high probability of dying in a 12-month period. People in (3) have a very low probability of dying. People in (1) are somewhere in between.

  • If someone in category (3) has COVID on his death certificate, it is entirely reasonable to state that he died ‘of COVID’. His death was completely unexpected.

  • If someone in category (2) has COVID on his death certificate, the fact that he had COVID is purely incidental. He probably would have died if he’d caught a cold (yes, that actually happens).

  • If someone in category (1) has COVID on his death certificate, it’s reasonable to suggest that he died ‘with COVID’.

The PHE data strongly suggests that a small minority died ‘of COVID’: look at the orange sections, and consider the aforementioned overlap in these various diseases:

image

The idea of ‘error bars’ on a model of the future makes little logical sense. You may properly apply error bars to measurements with a known (or estimated) level of noise.

You can offer an estimate of uncertainty, but that estimate depends on your assumptions. I’m not sure how you come to the conclusion that including 2008 in the expected-deaths baseline amounts to a “conspiracy theory”, but it certainly proves the point that these assumptions are highly subjective.

I don’t. My BP at the last check was 116/76, perhaps because I don’t sit in front of the TV all day shovelling Coke and Cheez-Its into my face.

With hypertension occurring in up to 80 percent of people over the age of 60, physicians have their work cut out for them in caring for this aging population.

So the correct statement would seem to be “all old Americans have hypertension and heart disease”. Which is hardly surprising, since it’s US government policy to ensure that all Americans develop hypertension and heart disease.

You appear to be agreeing with my assertion that old people are at heightened risk of COVID-related death not because they’re old (although obviously age is an independent risk factor for death) but because they’re ill.

All videos that contradict the mainstream COVID narrative are taken down, even if they’re supported by facts. Which is pretty interesting in itself, because you can find all sorts of mad conspiracy theories on YouTube.

Doctors can be horribly wrong. Some doctors are certifiable nutcases; have a look at some of Vernon Coleman’s rants about vaccines and diet. But I think the fact that he is a doctor suggests that he deserves a proper response, not merely “what a load of bollocks, he’s obviously wrong”.

The video is still on Twitter:

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That’s next level stuff. :neutral_face:

Covid caused the excess deaths, it seems quite obvious.

You appear to be suggesting that there are other ways that deaths can occur. Rather than just accuse you of something, would you like to give that a yes or a no?

So people who die from something now rather from something else at some indeterminate time in the future…It’s ok…Because they would die in the future anyway ?

This has nothing to do with what’s OK and what isn’t OK. It’s about 1+1=2.

I’ve spent a lot of time trying to interpret those statistics, but since you seem unwilling to accept some fairly fundamental principles, ie., you’re suggesting that a death can occur as a … well, a disembodied event with no connection to a once-living body, I don’t see much point continuing the conversation.

You should tell me when all these people that died from covid 'were going to die anyway '.

Glad to see we have finally established that I) excess deaths are real abs b) they were from coronavirus

PHE stats are very clear on that.

Right now I see a lot of waffle in terms of your projections of how quickly people were going to die anyway.

I can’t tell if you’re just too lazy to read what I’ve written, you have exceedingly poor math/visualisation skills, or you just have fanatical beliefs that lead you to disregard how the real world works. Either way, I’ve clearly wasted my time.

You posted it.
It clearly shows the covid deaths and also excess deaths.

It’s taking a lot of mental gymnastics on your part to keep explaining away figures that are obviously quite straightforward to understand.

People with chronic diseases still can have many years in them. Same for old people

Society recognises that.

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:man_facepalming:

If we could get past “people died of COVID”, we might have a more interesting conversation going on here (and indeed in the public sphere). But it appears that that’s impossible. Everything is about COVID. Everyone died of COVID. QED.

Yes, it does take some “mental gymnastics” to understand some extremely complex data. So I guess we’re going with “laziness” here.

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No that data isn’t that complex . When you parse it it’s telling a straightforward story.

Excess deaths highly correlates with covid wave peaks…The patient’s have been tested (especially in the last wave and confirned ), It’s really not that complicated !

If the excess deaths didn’t correlate with the peaks you’d have a point . But they don’t.

You’ll be happy to know that the numerically-dyslexic halfwits in power concur with your views.

You accuse everybody of being wrong when you don’t like the answer.

Very bad habit.

l

The excess deaths are there clear as day correlating with the covid peaks.