Coronavirus vaccination: pros, cons, alternatives

That’s not true. They do protect you but it’s not as much as they usually say and adverse effects are 100% under reported.

The less at risk you are the more they protect you, but also the much smaller risk you will have of having serious issues.

So for example in the under 18 group your risk of dying if you are vaccinated is zero, and if you aren’t, it’s 0.1 per 100K

So you protect yourself 100%, but your actual risk is a fraction of a fraction of a percent.

Still, nobody wants to end up on the wrong side of the statistics.🤷

I suggest thinking about this in terms of all-cause risk rather that the relative risks associated with COVID specifically.

There is a great deal of research now on the actual effects of vaccination, positive and negative. The results are unimpressive at best. But it’s the way of the world these days that people love their medicines.

I love my medicines too! That’s why I detest whenever someone calls me an anti-vaxxer as I’d be happy to take a “booster” of any other vaccine out there.

Even considering signing up the the Enegnic vaccine trail (if the price is right) which is an Australian COVID vaccine maker which looks pretty good, at least by the cover.

There are just too many things that make no sense to me, and no one has been able to answer, like what is it exactly about the vaccines that causes heart issues and blood clots? There are lots of theories but what is the official statement? Wouldn’t it be good to know. It’s certainly not a standard reaction to other vaccines.

So in the end, I don’t know.

Wikipedia has more references about Malone:

During the COVID-19 pandemic, he has been criticized for promoting misinformation about the safety and effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines.

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Sure, the authors of Wikipedia and a bunch of journalists are just the folk we need to fact-check what Malone says :roll_eyes: I’m sure they all know a lot more about science that he does.

If you listen to his interviews, he rarely makes dogmatic statements about what the COVID vaccines are, or are not. He is simply discussing the risks and benefits. The France24 article is bizarre, since it suggests that scientific papers need to be censored: and not because the paper in question was “wrong” in specific ways, but because it would “have a big impact”.

No explanation is given for the retraction of the paper. I read it a while back, and although I don’t remember the details, it was merely a particular view on the published data. Journalists don’t seem to comprehend that there are many ways of adding meaning to raw numbers: the numbers themselves don’t tell a story.

How about the corona report for last month from Germany where we have a 4th wave in the unvaccinated

https://www.kbv.de/media/sp/2021-11-12_Corona_Report.pdf

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Base rate adjusted covid risk reduction by vaccinations:

symptomatic 75% reduction
hospitalization 80% reduction
intensive care 86% reduction
death 76% reduction

last two are over 90% for under 60 y/o

Like doing base rate fallacy?

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Well? How about it? What does it mean?

When people say “we’re following the science!” or “we’re following the data!”, they’re fooling themselves. They’re following their opinions. Let’s say you observe 50,000 people dying of flu every year. What does that mean, in human terms? What is the importance of that number? What policy directions does it suggest? The number, in and of itself, tells you nothing. You have to attach value to it - your beliefs, your philosophical position - in order for it to mean something.

So: your numbers there. First observation is that the numbers for older people look rather implausible: 134 (per million) dead unvaxed for every 17 vaxed? If the vaccination rate for that group is 86%, that puts the vaccine efficacy (at preventing death by COVID) at around 87%. Same sort of figure comes out of the hospitalisation numbers for younger people (71% vaxed). That seems a lot higher than most authorities are claiming (40-70%).

But let’s take the data at face value. Well, in one month we’ve had 30/m working-age people in critical condition because of COVID. There are about 50m people in that age group, so 1500 of them had a nasty experience in hospital, and ~170 of them died (0.00034%). Of those, 80%+ had metabolic syndrome (as was always the case), a condition which is 100% preventable. 70% of the unvaxed in that age group walked out of hospital alive. To put all that in context, 10,000 people die in Germany every month as a result of smoking.

So is this an “epidemic”? Is it something that anyone needs to be very, very concerned about? You clearly think it is. But you can’t point to some immovable feature of the universe, some scientific fact, that defines it as such. It’s purely your opinion.

And then you have to ask: if this is important, can we do anything about it? And should we do anything about it? How expensive (in terms of life-hours and money consumed) will it be to make a difference? Can we spend that time and money more productively elsewhere? At this point we need to consider all-cause mortality, not just COVID deaths. The answers to these hard questions do not drop out of the numbers.

Finally: are there an increasing number of unvaccinated people ending up in hospital? If so, then it would suggest (but does not prove) that the vaccination programme is supporting the spread of unpleasant virus variants, exactly as you would expect. In some minds this would raise moral questions about the advisability of ignoring evolutionary biology when handing out vaccines. In other minds it would not, for various reasons (“the unvaccinated deserve what’s coming to them”, “the unvaccinated are stupid, and disposable in any case”, “vaccination is the best way to protect yourself so the unvaccinated should just get vaccinated”). But again, the numbers themselves don’t tell you what you should think.

Where have I done this? And why are you so obsessed with it?

Regarding those wonderful results from vaccines in Germany: another rant on my favourite topic.

This paper was published back in January, but there’s no particular reason why the results should not still be valid:

The first and most obvious observation here is that, with a prevalence of metabolic syndrome (MetS) in the US around 30%, it would appear that meeting the criteria for MetS increase your risk of being hospitalised with COVID by about 4-5 times (other researchers have made a similar observation - it’s a pretty robust result).

Having been hospitalized, your risk of dying is then 3.4 times higher than other patients (95%CI 1.52–7.69). In other words, your chances of contracting and dying from COVID if you have MetS is about 15 times higher than someone who is healthy - which, again, is in line with the observation that very few of those people who died “with” COVID to date actually died of COVID.

Now, the German report that @slawa posted suggests that you can reduce that risk by 80%+ by getting vaxxed. Your risk of dying of COVID is then only twice as high - or thereabouts - as someone who is healthy. The data from other countries do not paint such an optimistic picture: COVID wards are still full of people who are fat and diabetic.

My conclusion: if people want to take that shot, that’s up to them. But they would vastly improve their chances if they stopped being fat and diabetic.

Secondary conclusion: of the 2m “of or with” COVID deaths in the US and Europe to date, 1.5m+ died due to a well-funded (and ongoing) State-sponsored misinformation campaign designed to turn MetS patients away from simple, well-tested treatments for their condition, and the much-decried “overload” on hospitals (even in 2019 20-25% of hospital spending was on diet-related problems) is almost entirely an artifact of this campaign.

hmmm, diabetes one of the preconditions for high risk from covid…
:thinking:
excessive sugar consumption, one of the behaviors that increases risk of developing diabetes…
:thinking:
therefore, excessive sugar consumption leads to higher risk of covid complications…

fuck all the companies making money poisoning people with their shit

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It was not directed at you. But this is done fairly often by vaccine critical media.

From the Canadian province of Saskatchewan, which has had looser guidelines than Taiwan and—in certain pockets—a much higher degree of vaccine hesitancy:

Long-hauler symptoms suck, and in this woman’s case include “debilitating fatigue, a racing heart, brain fog, headaches, vertigo and memory loss. It became challenging to walk, talk, read, groom myself, do housework and attend appointments.”

Her conclusion is unambiguous: get vaccinated immediately if you have not yet done so, if only try “to avoid the possible short- and long-term consequences of this preventable illness that turned [her] life upside down.”

Guy

That’s her advice. It’s a personal choice whether to get vaccinated which should be respected.

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Of course it’s your judgement to weight different accounts, one of which I provided.

Personally speaking, as I do not make my living by carrying heavy objects, I would prefer not to contend with any of the long haul cognitive effects of being infected as described above.

Guy

But how would you tell the difference? :wink:

There’s a reason people say “anecdotes are not data”. There are many ways you can be injured and many ways you can protect yourself from injury. If the media ran an article every other day about (for example) the long-term effects of cannabis use, you can be certain that attitudes to it would be a lot different. Reality is complex, and these issues are not easy to boil down into a few column-inches with a clear and simple conclusion.

If you want to vaccinated because you think it will protect you from ‘long COVID’, that is of course up to you. However, most of the pushback against vaccines is against the government policies surrounding them, not the vaccines themselves. It suits the politicians to misrepresent the argument as being “anti-vax” rather than “anti-goverment-policy”.

As far as I’m concerned, if you want to stay in your home or on your own private land and not get vaccinated, be my guest, that’s your right. But the moment you step outside and decide to participate in organised civil society, then you are going to have to follow society’s rules and norms. And that includes getting your vaccines and behaving yourself in a way that does not put everyone else around you at risk.

I’m utterly sick of people’s bullshit. You either make the choice to get your fucking vaccines, or choose to go live in the wilderness and stay away from the rest of human society.

you may have an invalid point, because

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Unfortunately, you could make precisely the same sort of speech about the vaccine fanatics who are making everyone’s life a misery: if they wish to be afraid of COVID, then they can get vaccinated as much as they like, hide away behind masks as much as they like, and follow whatever other magic rituals they like. Once their actions start impinging on the rights of others, they’ve overstepped the line.

Do you realise that you just repeated verbatim a set argument from the propaganda portfolio being broadcast 24-7? Can you elucidate why you even believe what you believe? I suspect you can’t.

IMO, this confrontation between believers and non-believers was deliberately engineered. Setting neighbour against neighbour and splitting up friends and families is a prerequisite for a dictatorship (or in this case a theocracy) in which people can be trusted to rat out Enemies of the State.

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:point_up_2: This.
And it’s working very efficiently among many people in Taiwan, on this forum, and throughout the world.

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It’s a tried and trusted formula. Works every single time. Except this time they’ve honed the psychological principles to perfection, so that people don’t have the faintest clue they’re being manipulated. The propaganda of the 1950s was a half-brick in a sock. In 2021, it’s a stiletto knife.

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Very punk rock.