Surely you mean magistrate?
That is one of the protesters’ demands.
[quote=“shiadoa”][quote=“hsinhai78”][quote=“Hokwongwei”][quote=“hsinhai78”]
[/quote]
These people received market-value compensations. I can see how you find the Dapu case with farmer families immoral. But the Wang family? Their alleged “family home for generations” was purchased ten years ago, had multiple illegal additions and the entire block already agreed to the urban renewal. Only the Wangs opposed it, probably hoping for an even higher compensation. It’s disgusting how the Wang case or the case of people squatting land are turned into human rights issues. IMHO illegal additions to buildings by itself should be enough to expropriate the owners without any compensation whatsoever. Ridiculous how people like the Wangs don’t give a rat’s ass about zoning and building laws but now want to sue every level of government.[/quote][/quote]
Sadly , I am heavily involved in a Miaoli Development, which, although nothing to do with Dapu, has meant the postponement of our Project because of the current pressure. The facts are more like you have stated and the Mayor is about the most efficient and HONEST I have met in Taiwan. The LAW is the issue here. It was followed …to the letter…by the Mayor, indeed he has been more patient than I would have been.
The Media have simply incited the Sheeple to protest at what appears(on the face of it) to be unjust and newsworthy. If the people of Taiwan think the Law is unjust it is up to them to change things, not to criticize its enforcement.That is a separate argument , completely.
It is unfortunate that some people only glean information from a sensationalist Media in Taiwan and fail to dig deeper,before expressing their “green” or “Missionary”
agendas 
We can get angry, we can get frustrated, we can see a better way sometimes but it really needs a Taiwanese solution, in the end. 
[/quote]
No, I am an authoritarian, fascist, capitalist pig who should be taxed to death. Ask Mucha Man about it. No offence Mucha Man, but common, let’s have a beer and straighten things out. Hokwongwei can join, too. In all honesty, I am sure we would have an interesting debate. My issue with vendors is squatting sidewalks, that is a violation of the law.
Surely you mean magistrate?
That is one of the protesters’ demands.[/quote]
Then why are they protesting at the Magistrate ( sorry I always call him Mayor) instead of the Legislature?
Bullshit. The law is never that clear in Taiwan so saying someone followed it to the letter is meaningless and immediately makes you suspect (it is a standard blue trope whenever the people are being fucked over). Land Expropriation laws in particular are vague and have almost no oversight. In almost every case I can think of, the locals protesting claim that procedures were not in fact followed, or when they were, it was a sham.
Remember the Environmental Impact Assessment on the Miramar? Yeah, all legal and all a sham. Of course when the Supreme Court looked at it it suddenly wasn’t legal. So enough with the nonsense. These case stink and I doubt any would be held up by a competent court looking at them objectively. Fact is, there was no compelling reason to force people to give up their land in Dapu. A science park is not important enough.
Like I wrote above, according to a study on this, nearly 100% of requests for expropriation are granted. Does that strike you as problematic? It does me.
No, they are the same thing. The laws are purposely vague and rarely enforced. Only when it is to someone powerful’s advantage is it strictly followed according to a narrow definition.
Oh, the law. Well, my, a violation of a minor bylaw is of course something to get excited about given the perfection of Taiwanese society.
Bullshit. The law is never that clear in Taiwan so saying someone followed it to the letter is meaningless and immediately makes you suspect (it is a standard blue trope whenever the people are being fucked over). Land Expropriation laws in particular are vague and have almost no oversight. In almost every case I can think of, the locals protesting claim that procedures were not in fact followed, or when they were, it was a sham.
Remember the Environmental Impact Assessment on the Miramar? Yeah, all legal and all a sham. Of course when the Supreme Court looked at it it suddenly wasn’t legal. So enough with the nonsense. These case stink and I doubt any would be held up by a competent court looking at them objectively. Fact is, there was no compelling reason to force people to give up their land in Dapu. A science park is not important enough.
No, they are the same thing. The laws are purposely vague and rarely enforced. Only when it is to someone powerful’s advantage is it strictly followed according to a narrow definition.[/quote]
So which “Laws” would you like to change? Ones that allow for no development at all …so Taiwan can have just green fields and poverty… Developments where nobody can make a profit? You are stating that because the Law is an Ass…it is not viable. YOU are not in a position to pontificate about the Laws of Taiwan, nor am I. Miranmar was reprehensible, on the face of it, BECAUSE they broke the Law. Enforcement was the issue…NOT the same at all.
You need to wake up and smell the Roses in the real World. It’s like that…like it or not. You are talking out of your arse MM, on this issue
Oh please. You peg yourself as a crank not worth even answering with that kind of stupid “what are you a communist” rant.
But I’ll answer a little and if you respond with a similar post questioning my love of capitalism then you can take a flying leap off 101.
Stealing the livelihood of people to create other “jobs” is patent nonsense. Wages in Taiwan are ridiculously low and these parks are doing nothing to reverse that. A sound agricultural system is an important part of the mix of any country.
And look, the “laws” were supposedly amended in 2011 to protect prime farmland which Dapu certainly qualifies for. But to no effect.
So we have a government telling us that food production is a national security issue, and prime farmland is vital, and yet allowing counties to destroy it.
What to do: First change to laws: stop allowing local government’s to set the price. Second, create a national land use policy act and the resources to enforce it which would make certain land off limits to development. That would include prime farmland. In case you don’t know, once you pave over land, it can’t ever be reused for growing things (without immense expense and effort). Third, give courts the power to fine and arrest violators.
Four, allow much more citizen participation in the process of expropriation and not a few bogus meetings which are usually filled with lies. Fifth, offer proper compensation, especially for farmland which is valued far below commercial land. Farmers get screwed over this as they rarely if ever get enough to buy more property.
Here’s a good quote to consider:
[quote]First, forced land expropriation involves human rights and is not a simple matter of how much compensation is offered. Forced expropriations are uncommon in constitutional democracies — unlike in Taiwan. This is because these nations view the issue as one involving human rights and one that needs to be strictly observed.
Second, land expropriation is a structural issue and not merely a matter of technical evaluation. Because land expropriation robs people of the constitutionally guaranteed rights mentioned above, expropriation must meet very strict conditions — it must serve the community, be necessarily proportional, a last resort and fully compensated. Not one of these conditions should be ignored.[/quote]
Can anyone seriously say in Dapu that any of the above conditions were met?
The honest Magistrate, that made me laugh. These guys are good at playing straight with foreigners, but they get a cut on everything that goes on. They don’t care about the environment either, it’s all about rezoning land and getting money from the infrastructure projects. Concrete and more concrete. They basically steal the land from farmers because the farmers are not given any choice in the matter. How about the magistrates property is seized at below market rates with no negotiation.
They also Iike to continually build themselves very fancy government offices in one of the poorest counties in Taiwan.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]Oh please. You peg yourself as a crank not worth even answering with that kind of stupid “what are you a communist” rant.
But I’ll answer a little and if you respond with a similar post questioning my love of capitalism then you can take a flying leap off 101.
Stealing the livelihood of people to create other “jobs” is patent nonsense. Wages in Taiwan are ridiculously low and these parks are doing nothing to reverse that. A sound agricultural system is an important part of the mix of any country.
And look, the “laws” were supposedly amended in 2011 to protect prime farmland which Dapu certainly qualifies for. But to no effect.
So we have a government telling us that food production is a national security issue, and prime farmland is vital, and yet allowing counties to destroy it.
What to do: First change to laws: stop allowing local government’s to set the price. Second, create a national land use policy act and the resources to enforce it which would make certain land off limits to development. Third, give courts the power to fine and arrest violators.
Four, allow much more citizen participation in the process of expropriation and not a few bogus meetings which are usually filled with lies. Fifth, offer proper compensation, especially for farmland which is valued far below commercial land. Farmers get screwed over this as they rarely if ever get enough to buy more property.[/quote]
MM , I have to question your love of Capitalism :roflmao: … I am ,In fairness, an avid reader and respect your musings on here…most of the time. I hear EXACTLY what you are saying about Farmland and ,actually, agree to an extent, that that Policy would make sense in many cases. Our Development has been held up by this…(it is utterly unsuitable land for Farming btw) and I had to jump through hoops and answer hundreds of questions…to be even able to bid for the Land use. That included at least 20 People for the BOT approval,who were both Local Representatives and Government Officials.
It was a vertitable Spanish Inquisition ( Nobody expects that 
). I can only speak from my own experiences but at the higher level e.g. Magistrate, I found no evidence of any foul deeds at all.The Man wanted what was best for Miaoli IMHO. Others are not so caring. That is why I feel so strongly ,that you have not considered this case fully, from both sides. I presumed (maybe wrongly) that you were just adducing you own Political thoughts and Generalising about a Man ,who I think is actually one of the good ones here. There are few enough.
Sorry that may not be a particularly eloquent reply as it was a little rushed…
[quote=“Mucha Man”]Here’s a good quote to consider:
[quote]First, forced land expropriation involves human rights and is not a simple matter of how much compensation is offered. Forced expropriations are uncommon in constitutional democracies — unlike in Taiwan. This is because these nations view the issue as one involving human rights and one that needs to be strictly observed.
Second, land expropriation is a structural issue and not merely a matter of technical evaluation. Because land expropriation robs people of the constitutionally guaranteed rights mentioned above, expropriation must meet very strict conditions — it must serve the community, be necessarily proportional, a last resort and fully compensated. Not one of these conditions should be ignored.[/quote]
Can anyone seriously say in Dapu that any of the above conditions were met?[/quote]
The Law.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]The honest Magistrate, that made me laugh. These guys are good at playing straight with foreigners, but they get a cut on everything that goes on. They don’t care about the environment either, it’s all about rezoning land and getting money from the infrastructure projects. Concrete and more concrete. They basically steal the land from farmers because the farmers are not given any choice in the matter. How about the magistrates property is seized at below market rates with no negotiation.
They also Iike to continually build themselves very fancy government offices in one of the poorest counties in Taiwan.[/quote]
Yeah, local elections in Taiwan are among the most expensive in the world to run for? How is that possible when magistrate and council jobs pay only middling wages? What idiots they must be: or really really really devoted to the people. 
[quote=“headhonchoII”]The honest Magistrate, that made me laugh. These guys are good at playing straight with foreigners, but they get a cut on everything that goes on. They don’t care about the environment either, it’s all about rezoning land and getting money from the infrastructure projects. Concrete and more concrete. They basically steal the land from farmers because the farmers are not given any choice in the matter. How about the magistrates property is seized at below market rates with no negotiation.
They also Iike to continually build themselves very fancy government offices in one of the poorest counties in Taiwan.[/quote]
Miaoli Town Hall is horrible 
I have answered MM about this. I hear your reasoning. I can only recount my personal experiences. Yes an honest Magistrate! I have met a few suspect ones. I know bad things are going on… I just doubt, in this case it may be quite as one sided as everyone is portraying it to be HH
Oh, and with a capital letter, too.
So this honest magistrate recently says that the protesters attending a rally in Taipei was “god-given” window of opportunity to send in a demolition team to remove the homes.
Yeah, a man who really cares. 
In other words, for people with poor connections, the law is an obstacle. This puts you closer to the farmers than you think.
I don’t know the guy myself nor have I had any dealings with the city/county government in Miaoli. The civil servants are fine, it’s the politicians who are all rotten because that’s the system they work with, buying votes, kickbacks, development schemes, that’s what they are in it for. I use my own two eyes and see what the government is involved in and it’s all about land appropriation using the local police and the courts and also gangsters as muscle. Sure they compensate the people for their land but it’s nothing compared to the real worth of the land after rezoning, plus you are given no choice in the matter. I am also well aware of their vote buying schemes. That stinks.
The current situation with the KMT is really quite similar to the CCP set-up, all the provincial officials enrich themselves through development schemes, their favourite and most profitable of which is to appropriate farmland and rezone it for dubious local development projects. Looking at the new government buildings in Miaoli, they even look the same as the new CCP government buildings you find all over China. It’s uncanny.
There is no lack of urban areas to redevelop in Taiwan, but they conspicuously skip over these (Miaoli City has a MASSIVE abandoned shopping mall which towers over the town centre and is left to rot in view of the City Hall) to go straight for the farmland. They’d take the nature reserves and wild areas too if they could but that’s hard to get at being protected by national laws.
I also passed through Sanyi yesterday and saw large areas of newly cleared land outside the town. The Sanyi area is a very special area of Taiwan and I really wasn’t happy to see that, of course it’s part of another government sponsored concreting development scheme I am sure. The Sanyi area has many rare species of animals and birds and has been largely left alone until recently, I hope they are not going to wreck it too.
In other words, for people with poor connections, the law is an obstacle. This puts you closer to the farmers than you think.[/quote]
The Law is not seen by me as an obstacle MM. I have to work within the Law as everyone else. My point was that it has not been a case of “you pays the Money” as you are implying,but actually a very difficult process. Or are you saying with better “connections” it may have been easier?
The return on Investment for us is a very long timescale. I do not think (for foreigners at least) it is easy to be involved in Developing anything here…good or bad.
I am perplexed at your sudden realization that like almost every Country, people with “better” connections get better results. This is the same the World over and Taiwan is no worse or better, surely?
My point is that not all Developments are corrupt …maybe most are but I can not say unless I am involved,personally. You/HH are accusing ALL Magistrates of being corrupt because of the cost of re-election. A point, but I don’t agree in presuming every person in Power is like that,whilst accepting it goes on…if that makes sense?
Many of the county and city officials have criminal records, but they are still allowed to serve their duties. If they are caught out in corruption on the job, they often get relatives or friends to step in. Some are prosecuted, but it does tend to be the people that are out of favour or don’t have much power or have been too obvious in their dealings.
Vote buying is corrupt therefore the politicians are corrupt. But that’s only the start of their dealings. Being a local county/city official is extremely lucrative, especially over the last few years with so much juicy farmland to get their hands on and planning approvals that they have intimate knowledge of. Everything is fine dealing with these guys until you try and get in the way of their big ‘prizes’ such as ‘science park’ development. They won’t bother small potatoes for kickbacks, that’s too risky and not worth their while, they make money from property and planning approvals with the big developers in the background. The Dapu thing was a sign that Liu has been getting too big for his boots, his statements were extremely provocative, but he obviously enjoys the support of the cabinet, perhaps because Miaoli is a borderline blue area and they want his local voting machine in smooth operation.
Even if they might happen to do some good work along the way that doesn’t take away from the fact that they are stealing the people’s land and resources. I accept that some corruption will always happen, but as William Chung said, enough is enough, these guys need to be removed from office now.
Yes, Taiwan is much worse than most. The collusion of organized criminals with politician and business has almost no match in the world until maybe modern Russia.
I am merely stating what everyone in Taiwan seems to know, what serious criminologists seem to know, and what serious journalist know, and what I have also observed.
[quote=“headhonchoII”]Many of the county and city officials have criminal records, but they are still allowed to serve their duties. If they are caught out in corruption on the job, they often get relatives or friends to step in. Some are prosecuted, but it does tend to be the people that are out of favour or don’t have much power or have been too obvious in their dealings.
Vote buying is corrupt therefore the politicians are corrupt. But that’s only the start of their dealings. Being a local county/city official is extremely lucrative, especially over the last few years with so much juicy farmland to get their hands on and planning approvals that they have intimate knowledge of. Everything is fine dealing with these guys until you try and get in the way of their big ‘prizes’ such as ‘science park’ development. They won’t bother small potatoes for kickbacks, that’s too risky and not worth their while, they make money from property and planning approvals with the big developers in the background. The Dapu thing was a sign that Liu has been getting too big for his boots, his statements were extremely provocative, but he obviously enjoys the support of the cabinet, perhaps because Miaoli is a borderline blue area and they want his local voting machine in smooth operation.
Even if they might happen to do some good work along the way that doesn’t take away from the fact that they are stealing the people’s land and resources. I accept that some corruption will always happen, but as William Chung said, enough is enough, these guys need to be removed from office now.[/quote]
You have really nailed it with this last series of posts. :bravo: