Death penalty discussion

Politics International Politics
21

I completely agree with this. I remember when Fred West topped himself while awaiting trial, the media got themselves all in a lather that he’d “escaped justice”. I was like, what, srsly? He’s going to get one hell of a shock if there really is a Judgement Day. And even if there isn’t, the outcome of his decision was about as ‘just’ as it gets.

People undoubtedly have some prurient interest in watching the obviously-guilty dragged through a humiliating judicial process and then left to moulder in jail (at the taxpayer’s expense). If such characters choose death for themselves, well, good riddance, and I don’t think they should be posthumously vilified for what is basically an honourable atonement (if such a thing is possible). If they make that choice in jail, then options should be … offered to them. But it’s definitely NOT up to the State to make that decision, or to pull the trigger.

22

I’m not against the death penalty in principle but I don’t think we have clearly thought out what the justice system is supposed to be doing. Do we want to punish or ‘correct’ offenders? Or both? If the intention is to punish then executions are not always the ultimate punishment. The MRT murderer wants to die and he sees (along with a worryingly large cult following of similarly disaffected youth) his impending execution as proof of the injustice of society. It would be a far greater punishment to ‘be nice’ and keep him alive and force him watch the happiness and kindness of others, say, Clockwork Orange style. He never had a girlfriend :bluemad: so make him watch, I don’t know, happy teen porn. Or restrain him to the top of a bunk bed and let couples come in from free society to have sex on the mattress underneath so he can. you know, feel the love. He wanted everyone to share in his pain so we should get revenge by doing the opposite.

And the belief that prisons give ‘correctional services’ is insane. Personally, I think offenders should, if possible, be put to work in the private sector with their earnings going to the victims.

23

[quote=“Chris”][quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“rowland”]…Oh, you know how to play that game. How very alt.atheism of you.
[/quote]

Is that the latest thing the right believes all liberals are looking at? Kind of like the new Rules for Radicals?[/quote]
Speaking of which, I had never heard of Saul Alinsky despite growing up among liberals in one of the most liberal parts of the US. [/quote]

Actually, I believe you. When I was young, they tried to indictrinate me in left wing blather, but it didn’t take. They never shared the source material with me, either. I only found out later where all the BS actually came from.

Indoctrination is all about force-feeding conclusions without ever letting the subject check the work. Throw out most of the history and all of the context, leaving the subject no choice but either to accept it all blindly as “everyone knows” common sense or else reject it as a bunch of stuff that can’t be squared with everyday experience. And if you’re sheltered – which I wasn’t – the second option is precluded.

This is why, whenever someone takes an “everyone knows this, you ignoramus” attitude with me, I know who’s the real ignoramus.

Likewise with “my parents brought me up to believe.” I’ve known a few people who were brought up left wing. Red diaper babies, I call them.

A certain disdain for hard data – whether anecdotal or statistical – is also a sign of a brainwashed ideologue who simply will not think outside of the narrow constrains of his conditioned mind.

24

[quote=“antarcticbeech”]I’m not against the death penalty in principle but I don’t think we have clearly thought out what the justice system is supposed to be doing. Do we want to punish or ‘correct’ offenders? Or both?
[/quote]

When the question is framed that way, the answer has already been missed.

The point is to reduce crime. Nothing else. Lose track of that, and you get caught in the silly false moral dilemma of either vindictive punishment or sentimental enabling. Just do what reduces crime, and don’t do what increases crime.

If giving mad killers a free pony and a million dollars reduced mad killing, I’d be for it. Seeing as frying the bastards is what reduces mad killing, I’m for that.

25

[quote=“rowland”][quote=“Chris”][quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“rowland”]…Oh, you know how to play that game. How very alt.atheism of you.
[/quote]

Is that the latest thing the right believes all liberals are looking at? Kind of like the new Rules for Radicals?[/quote]
Speaking of which, I had never heard of Saul Alinsky despite growing up among liberals in one of the most liberal parts of the US. [/quote]

Actually, I believe you. When I was young, they tried to indictrinate me in left wing blather, but it didn’t take. They never shared the source material with me, either. I only found out later where all the BS actually came from.

Indoctrination is all about force-feeding conclusions without ever letting the subject check the work. Throw out most of the history and all of the context, leaving the subject no choice but either to accept it all blindly as “everyone knows” common sense or else reject it as a bunch of stuff that can’t be squared with everyday experience. And if you’re sheltered – which I wasn’t – the second option is precluded.

This is why, whenever someone takes an “everyone knows this, you ignoramus” attitude with me, I know who’s the real ignoramus.

Likewise with “my parents brought me up to believe.” I’ve known a few people who were brought up left wing. Red diaper babies, I call them.

A certain disdain for hard data – whether anecdotal or statistical – is also a sign of a brainwashed ideologue who simply will not think outside of the narrow constrains of his conditioned mind.[/quote]
I was brought up in an environment (home, schools and communities) in which I was exposed to all sides of arguments, examine them critically, look at the facts, apply logic, and think for myself. Certainly I was influenced by my liberal upbringing, but it wasn’t forced upon me. Had I decided to become a right-wing Christian fundamentalist, my parents, though not happy about it, would have allowed it.

You do realize that the right wing is chock full of propaganda and brainwashing, right? Homeschooling, churches, propagandist news sources like Fox News, NewsMax, etc.?

26

It removes precisely one criminal. So it reduces crime by precisely the amount of crimes that he, specifically, might have committed in future. It has no effect on the ‘background’ level of crime. Two completely different things. What were you saying about critical thinking again?

27

DP

28

How special of you.

Poor you. I was taught about Jesus, Old Hollywood, sports, science and being a good person. Radical politics did not enter into the picture.

29

[quote=“Chris”]
I was brought up in an environment (home, schools and communities) in which I was exposed to all sides of arguments, examine them critically, look at the facts, apply logic, and think for myself. [/quote]

Not easy to reconcile with:

My guess is you weren’t even exposed to all of one side of the argument. You got fed some straw men to give you the illusion that you were seeing both sides. That would explain the evidence presented above.

I’ve met lots of bigots in my life. I’ve never met one who thought of himself as a bigot. That’s why I never take anyone at his word who makes a point of telling me how logical and objective he is.

By the way, you don’t earn any brownie points with me by bragging about having grown up in ignorance.

30

It’s not quite Ecclesiastes 9:11 but yes, that’s some serious kick-ass wisdom you are imparting on us uncle Rowland.

31

Iceland doesn’t have the death penalty. Japan does, Austria doesn’t, Slovenia doesn’t, Norway doesn’t, Switzerland doesn’t, Germany doesn’t, Spain doesn’t . . . The list is dominated by countries that do not have the death penalty.

If you think “frying the bastards is what reduces mad killing” then you are obviously not familiar with the international experience. Which is understandable seeing how well the United States performs internationally in delusions of exceptionalism per capita. Murder rates in Australia are at historic lows despite not having had an execution for 5 decades. And what about within the United States? Do states with the death penalty have lower rates of homicide than states without?

32

[quote=“antarcticbeech”]
[/quote]

Wow, Mexico! But there should be some countries between 1. and 2., right? Like at least half of the countries around the world, and probably quite a few should come before Mexico, right?

I think there are just too many other factors, apart from having or not having a death penalty, that can effect murder rates. Not wanting to open another can of worms here, but having or not having easy access to firearms might be a more important factor.

33

Mexico has the most draconian gun laws in the world too.

34

That’s is a gem. I am going to say that every opportunity I get. :laughing:

35

You keep believing that; it is very entertaining.

36

[quote=“rowland”][quote=“Chris”]
I was brought up in an environment (home, schools and communities) in which I was exposed to all sides of arguments, examine them critically, look at the facts, apply logic, and think for myself. [/quote]

Not easy to reconcile with:

[quote]
Speaking of which, I had never heard of Saul Alinsky despite growing up among liberals in one of the most liberal parts of the US. After Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and the other far righties started blabbering on and on about it,
[/quote][/quote]
How exactly are these statements not reconcilable?

37

Are those laws effective in preventing easy access to guns? Draconian gun laws might not work well if you have widespread police corruption? I guess a lot of murdering in Mexico is done by criminal organizations, anyway. Gangsters are not really bothered by laws or the chance of getting sentenced to death, I would assume.

38

Are those laws effective in preventing easy access to guns? Draconian gun laws might not work well if you have widespread police corruption? I guess a lot of murdering in Mexico is done by criminal organizations, anyway. Gangsters are not really bothered by laws or the chance of getting sentenced to death, I would assume.[/quote]
Moreover, Mexico borders on the US, which is one of the top sources of illegal guns smuggled throughout the world. That’s where the guns are brought in from.

It’s like the ridiculous statement right-wingers say about Chicago: "Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the US, but that doesn’t stop the shootings.’ Yeah, because the guns are sourced outside of Chicago, Einstein.

39

Are those laws effective in preventing easy access to guns? Draconian gun laws might not work well if you have widespread police corruption? I guess a lot of murdering in Mexico is done by criminal organizations, anyway. Gangsters are not really bothered by laws or the chance of getting sentenced to death, I would assume.[/quote]

A quick look on Wikipedia says that Mexico actually has fairly liberal gun laws. As long as you pass a background check, you can own a non-military gun. Military weapons are regulated in basically the same way they are federally in the US.

40

Oh, so now now we’re going to talk about the Fast and Furious scandal?

I’m game. Just don’t try to blame that on right wingers.