Not quite correct, you shouldn’t blame the firefighters on this one…
The whole thing happened shortly after CSB was elected president. It was caused by ignoring safety precautions, because the workers should have been out of the river in time without any problem. The Chiayi firefighters were not really prepared for such a case because usually there are no larger rivers in Chiayi county. They had one rope (or better one gun) that they tried to shoot over but failed. As far as I saw on tv, the gun to shoot that rope has to be “reloaded” in a factory, it can’t be done on the spot. So they drove back into Chiayi to buy another one at a store, but the owner wanted 30k NT$ in advance…
Actually, the workers could have been rescued easily with a helicopter, but that was where all the discussion and redirection of responsibility went on (while the firefighters tried their best) between the institutions which called such a machine their own… I liked the coast guard’s excuse most: “It is not on the sea, so we are not responsible.” Iirc, they were closest…
Lian Zhan soon said on tv that “this is an incompetent government”. He forgot who had put those “decisionmakers” in army, police and coast guard into their positions…
And during any water-related accident happening right after this, you could always see a helicopter dispatched to the scene, no matter if it was of any use, so it would most times just hover somewhere to impress people…
Those kinds of attitudes are held by ALL members of an agrarian society, because it makes more eonomic sense. I think you would find that there are more and more people in Taipei, Taizhong and Kaohsiung who are beginning to realize that this is an impossible thing to do in a big city. We went through the same kind of process in the 30s and 40s. It’s not a “Chinese” thing.
Hear you there. I also believe it is got do with superstition whereas if the victim dies, they are afraid the victim’s ghost will come back to haunt you. Thus, no action is the best Standard Operating Procedure here in accidents. Besides the many accidents I have witnessed and assisted with, I have been mainly seen violence or shouting matches from usually less educated Taiwanese folks.
Once, a couple of months ago, I was standing in line at Hong Kong airport in front of China Air check-in counter. And this little Taiwanese, around 5 ft tall, late fifties, pot-bellied, binglan-stained teeth, in black dress pants, silk paisley shirt, was shouting at the top of his voice–saying stuff like: what kind of company is this? How come you lost my seat? I will sue you. I am cursing you all. Anyway, you get the gist of it all, a typical unhappy passenger. We all were probably in the same situation. But, this little geezer was going on and on, at the top his lungs, shouting at the counter with the lady behind, scared as helll. And even after their China Air manager came out to apologize to this guy, the old man was still raving on. Now the whole side of China Air counter was quiet, with around at least 80 to 100 other passengers looking on–and you know how big and large these counters are in Hong Kong. Well, I was by now ‘getting ticked off’ by his behavior and kinda ashamed to be Taiwanese–if I was one.
So, I told this guy: “hey, why don’t you take this pole (those aligning the queues) and bash the check-in lady on the head with it? If it makes you feel better” (I have this black humor from my English roots). At first the guy said: “meiyou tswo…wo hwei…” but then he noticed that I was not serious and making fun of him. Now, I look Chinese and I am not buff in a sense as Maoman, but I am not ‘chicken’ to run away from a fight. Well, this guy incredible starts focusing his attention at me! Shouting insults at me, and saying stuff like: What are you saying? Do you know who I am? You want to come out on the start and fight me!!! (I just kept my cool and stared him straight in the eye, without reacting.) He kept on taunting me with, “So you are going to Taipei, hee, I will hunt you down with my brothers.” “I am going to look you up?!” …anyway, this went on for another 5 minutes… Afterwhich the guy just lost his steam and slunked away, I think he also noticed his behavior might get him into trouble in super efficient HK–but no cops were seen. And at the end, the lady behind the counter upgraded me to business class for that flight back to Taiwan. I guess they were grateful for deflecting that guys’ anger as well embarassed that this incident had happened.
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I have to agree this seems to be an Asian thing, most people wouldn’t bother to help though to some extend this also applies to Western countries.
Especially if two people are fighting people don’t want to get involved, after all the risk of being injured yourself is quite high if - you aren’t as fit as Maoman. 
That said should I see someone beating children, elderly or women I am sure I will act - but if two youngsters are at it I think I will want to stay clear of it.
Having stayed in Malaysia before road rage was quite common or people will actually call for “support” - even they are at fault in the first place; and as the police there is rather inefficient and not that fast you think twice before trying to “help” others.
Inofficially we (expats) were also told not to stop in case of an accident as people might actually beat you up or kill you, even you only run over a chicken (no joke!) but instead to flee the scene and report to the nearest police station.
At least for the outskirts or remote areas this was to be applied.
I did actually have an accident once where somebody was slightly injured (my mistake) and I was the only one who tried to help, many on-lookers just standing around and no-one wanted to help even I asked them (the victim didn’t speak English). He was just sitting there and probably in a bit of a shock, his knees bleeding but after a few minutes he managed to stand up and recovered somewhat.
In the end it went all well, some friend / relative came and we negotiated a settlement for his injuries and damage to the motorbike which I paid without arguing (after checking with my boss who advised me to do so instead of getting the police involved).
But I have seen it also differently, yet worrying me as much as not being helped:
during a heavy downpour a car overtook me at high speed when traveling on the highway from Kuala Lumpur to Singapore and a couple of minutes later while going into a slight curve I noticed some debris in the middle of the road.
Thought a truck must have lost some junk but when I came closer I identified it as a motor block with wheels!
The car which overtook me moments before must have lost control and hit a try, was ripped apart where the motor was thrown back on the road and the body (well, what was left of it) ended up in the greenery.
I immediately stopped and tried to attend to the driver who was still alive (his leg bend over the steering wheel and face covered in blood). I thought I will do the right thing not moving him, just supporting him with a pillow and tried to call the emergency line on my cell phone - no way of getting through (nobody picked up!).
In the meantime a lot of other cars stopped and a small guy came and said “I am a doctor”. “Yeah”, I thought.
Anyhow, bottom line is they “helped” him by pulling him out of the wreck, throwing him in the back of another car and sending him to hospital. I guess if he didn’t break his back during the accident by then he did.
No ambulance ever came, only the highway administration to clear up the mess and a civilan police car. Initially the asked me to follow them to the police station and make a report but then stopped (still in the highway) to clarify if I actually was involved. As I wasn’t I denied and they send me off. Never got to know what happened to the guy …
That said I am quite happy to see that at least here in Taipei the ambulance and police is quite fast to arrive at the scene of an accident.
Back to the subject: a kid apparently got beaten to death by his step-father. Does anyone know if any legal remedies exist for domestic abuse in Taiwan? Will the police ever intervene prior to death, or is it always treated as an internal squabble? What about restraining orders? Even in the West a restraining order is not a perfect solution, but are they available here? Has anyone heard of one actually being granted? And what about after the fact – if a man beats up his wife or child will he ever spend the night in jail?
I remember about 3 years a young boy died from physical abuse. The story was not “unusual” as far as the media could discover: alcoholic father (or stepfather) in a southern rural town at home one evening, picked-up the kid and threw him against the wall, the kid fell to the floor unconscious, recovered later in an empty house, wandered to his local school and died in that night at the schoolhouse door…
The TV news showed a photo of the kid, taken a while before the incident. Everyone could see his collar bone had been broken once before and didn’t heal in the correct position…this appear to be evidence of prior abuse.
Luckily (?) there was quite a bit of public outrage! Could you image the terror in that kid’s life? I think that simple photo (like a school photo or ID photo) and the brief, understated (not sensationalized) story made a big difference in the public’s reaction.
There was a general call for greater awareness & reporting by school teachers, doctors and anyone else who might be in a position to notice this kind of thing. There was a push for greater funding nationwide of social services and agencies. Plenty of people wanted that man to suffer greatly and they weren’t afraid to speak-up about it in the media. This story went on for a couple of days…
Unfortunately my Chinese ability was almost nothing at the time, so I probably missed a lot of info. But I do hope that tragic kid didn’t die in vain…
Anyone know if the laws & social services/agencies have become stronger since then?
I’ve been wondering what kind of laws exist here to protect children from child abuse.
I’m a teacher here, and I believe one of my 6 year olds is being beaten at home. He is a thin, pale, scrawny, unhappy looking little boy who often misses class and has shown up with really suspicious looking injuries.
One day, he arrived with a huge dark red mark covering his entire cheek. It looked like his face had been held to a hot pan or something! I asked the school secretary if she knew what had happened to him. She said it was sunburn! Gimme a break.
Last week he arrived with a big fat cut lip. I asked him if he fell down and he said no. I asked him what happened and he became really squirmy.
Of course, I have no proof of anything and if I say something, whoever is hurting him will deny it and punish the little boy.
It breaks my heart to see this little guy… is there anything I can do that won’t get him into more trouble?
I’m sorry to say so, but not much 
.
Be nice to him. Odds are that the police won’t do a damn, and mentioning it in a way so the parents get wind of it will lead to an even more firece beating next time.
Unfortunately, I’m with Holger on this one; the parents here can be downright brutal with their kids and you DO NOT want to put yourself or the child in the middle of it. i’ve heard that there are agencies that can help with that kind of thing, but the police simply don’t care (at all). My suggestion is to do the best you can to make the kid feel accepted and smart, and if his English ability is good enough, let him know privately that you are ALWAYS available to talk to him and that you won’t tell his parents. Perhaps using healthy snacks as rewards in the class could be beneficial to him as well. Just do your best to make him feel like a good kid, but don’t single him out or he’ll feel unaccepted by his peer group.
Makes you wonder about the future of Taiwan, doesn’t it? I guess the best you can do is lead by example
Ask Lu Xun. He is the very famous Chinese author whom deplored the Chinese behaviors like these during the 1930’s and rise of Communism. Chinese are controlled by a guanxi worldview and don’t give a shit about anyone or anything if they are not directly effected. It requires an ironfist like that of Bouncer Maoman’s to settle the Chinese. I doubt that the hotshot would have been back with mafia-types too soon. In a fancy Honda Civic means he was probably a spoiled rich kid. Just kick 'em in the balls and watch 'em cry. I have done this because the Chinese parents didn’t do so for their “little emperor”. Chinese will nervously laugh at those whom commit suicide off a bridge. The peasants are worse. What an ugly behavior!
As for the child neglect, the father needs to be taken out behind the woodshed. Don’t you be the one to it.
Yes - I remember the people being swept away in the river - I couldn’t believe that if a TV crew could be there then a rescue crew couldn’t.
I remember reading at the time that there was some dispute over which helicopter should be despatched.
Oh - and if you are going to get into a fight with any Chinese guy be sure you never frequent the place again. He will look for you forever afterwards - with as many friends as he can muster - and armed to the teeth.
Re- the workers swept away in the creek.
The helicopter was on standby in case a VIP needed to nip off somewhere - hopefully not in the unfortunate fashion of the former prez, Lee Deng Shei? (soon after the 921 he nipped off to visit a tent city in Nantou and his chopper blew down a tree killing an aboriginal girl).
I remember watching that Ba Xi creek incident on the box though and agree with Amos, that creek was flowing way too fast for anybody to do anything. The kerfuffle that followed was to do with how the newly elected DPP government could deal with a crisis.
Amazing tv but I think its a bit of a stretch to relate it to the thread of refusing to assist the needy.
As to that issue, likewise helped in a couple of incidents and in both cases copped a bollocking from the mother-in-law. Wish I coud remember the Taiwanese she used but it translated as “eat more rice and worry less about other people’s business.”
Seen quite a few of those kiddie beaten to death reports on the Chinese TV news. Grim stuff. In the incident mentioned at the outset, the reporter demonstrated a range of physical punishments kiddies often cop. I didn’t think that was particularly wise.
GC
Talking about beating the kids… its no wonder they have the time to do that since they seem to scream at their kids so much…
Never punish them pr point out what they did wrong… they just SCREAM in Taiwanese… even I would be scared by that
stacks.msnbc.com/news/873184.asp
This stuff happens everywhere. It’s not “taiwanese” or “chinese”, but economic in nature. The only reason behavior like what’s being decried here doesn’t happen in the west is because westerners – white westerners, rather – are much more wealthy than anyone else in the world, and have been so for several generations already.
Ugly things like this happen everywhere the economic and legal conditions exist to create them. Taiwan is, relatively speaking, only just emerging from several hundred years of poverty; it will take time for the Taiwanese to learn the humanity that y’all here aspire to, but i think it’s pretty damn unfair to decry their attempts and current development while the U.S. is out supporting terrorists like Israel and starting up wars that are guaranteed to kill millions and perpetuate injustices and violence in the affected regions indefinitely (i.e. – Kosovo, Afghanistan, Bosnia, now Iraq, next North Korea, then Burma…).
It’s a double standard. Whiteys in general (i’d say “we”, except i don’t think this way) only feel they have the right to be pointing fingers and lecturing others because they all have the habit/luxury of ignoring your own culture’s culpability and responsibilities for propagating it.
Child abuse happens everywhere. Kids die and are beaten all the time in the U.S; the main difference is that a) people in the inner cities don’t generally have much recourse or interest in the agencies that are purportedly there to help them, and b) people in suburbia live so far apart that it’s damned difficult to witness the acts and collect evidence that’ll bring those responsible to justice.
Taiwan is a crowded place, and we’re teachers so it’s easier to for us to see it here than it was back in the States. My Ma’s been teaching now nearly for thirty years, and she’s got lots of stories to match the ones y’all are putting up here. Don’t disrespect Taiwan; it’s a terrible problem that is terribly difficult to deal with – and putting up with that pain and trying to resolve it constructively, even in the face of overwhelming odds against any success, is your duty as a teacher.
That said, there just aren’t that many options available. But then, there really aren’t that many options available back in the States, either. Folks here would like to talk about the social agencies and services offered, but exactly the same problems we are speaking of here exist back there. Probably the only difference is a more optimistic outlook on the part of the general public that they can be solved –
but again, that mainly comes with economic and technological advances, not with any government public relations campaign or radical legislation.
i second the point that this isn’t necessarily a taiwanese problem but that it’s a worldwide issue. but that being said, that doesn’t mean that nothing can be done to try to improve things here, just as there are avenues that people had to construct in the west to attempt to help people there.
i’m not too versed in the ngo community here - i’ve only been here a few weeks - but i’m assuming that there aren’t agencies that specialize in family domestic abuse. i’m assuming that as teachers there is no agency or safe house to direct our students to. but perhaps there are agencies out there that could create something like this.
but i really think that until there is criminal recourse to abuse - another big motivating force to improve social behavior, above that of economic progress (after all, although the u.s. has progressed immensely in terms of economics [largely on the backs of free labor and indentured servitude, a “luxury” that the taiwanese are hard-pressed to mimic in this new age of humanitarianism], the progress in social services hasn’t come with economic gain but mostly in direct challenge to it…unless you count the philanthropists with money to donate to community organizations [who probably acquired their wealth through unscrupulous activities to begin with]). until the government acts as a social force in addition to a force that creates the opportunities for economic growth, until some parents start staring prison in the face as the wages of burning their child’s face, nothing substantial will improve.
is there a way of starting a petition drive or communicating to those in legislative power of the economic progress that might come as a result of an improvement in humanitarianism on the island? or, in other words, could the money-hungry businessmen in power be convinced that by being more humanitarian that they would increase the chances of their own economic growth?
but then again, the u.s.'s dismal humanitarian record, coupled with its economic might, doesn’t give much evidence that humanitarianism leads to economic growth…
I had a friend that was working with a groundbreaking Taiwanese foundation, aimed at rescuing abused women. They’d go door-to-door in some of the poorest and most violent counties of central Taiwan armed with this new legislation that makes it possible for a wife to sue her husband, divorce him, and get the kids. That was just a couple of years ago, though – the NGO’s that would take care of child abuse don’t much exist, here. Some do, but not a whole lot. i think most – all? – have been mentioned above, there.
Strange assertion, IMO, considering “humanity” is a virtue that has been espoused by several different Chinese philosophies for more than two thousand years…
Oh. The Israelis are the terrorists? And what war is the US starting that is guaranteed to kill millions?
Kosovo? How? Afghanastan? Prior to uprooting the Taliban and routing al Qaeda in Afghanastan, the US was the biggest aid doner to that “affected” region. Bosnia? How? Iraq? Injustices and violence there have been perpetuated by Saddam Hussein there… or do you not acknowledge such injustices? North Korea? What "injustice and or violence does the US have planned for N. Korea? Burma? Huh?
Please explain.
False. In the US, there are a plethora of agencies in the inner cities that offer and provide free or very inexpensive assistance in all matters of concern. Whether or not people there take advantage of these agencies is another matter. Your above claim sounds similar to the assertion made by the Clintons in the US that poor people were unable to obtain vaccinations for their children, when in fact, every locality in the US has “well baby” clinics accessible to everyone… I used them for my son’s vaccinations when we were in Pittsburgh… and there people made the same baseless claims that you have made above.
People in the suberbs live quite close, but even in rural areas, awareness re child abuse is high enough that evidence of the same is not easily missed.
If such abuse goes unnoticed, or unreported, it is more a result of people having differing notions as to what actually constitutes “child abuse”.
I think the first step to resolving any problem is recognizing that the same exists. This relates to my statement above that different peoples have differing notions as to what constitutes child abuse. I don’t believe that coming to Taiwan with one notion that may differ from the local notion and commenting on the same is neccesarily “disrespecting” Taiwan. It is merely making an observation and commenting on the same from a different perspective.
Nonsense. There are plenty of options available in Taiwan and even more so in the US.
No, the difference I believe, is in the general perceptions held commonly by different groups of peoples. Some see abuse where others see appropriate disciplinary measures.
I disagree. It normally requires a change in perception held commonly by the general population, which then requests social change which generally is manifested in government education efforts and legislative efforts to change behavior.
I realize that all things are relative…
Please explain what you mean by the US’ dismal humanitarian record.
You are all soooo off topic. I thought that we were discussing beating kids. The locals seem to prefer “the little hand of love” to be had everywhere. Canes are also widely sold, but possibly leave more marks.
I had an interesting experience some years back. [/quote]
I’ve only just read this. Good on you Maoman.