Did Dutch presence continue after Fort Zeelandia?

I definitely have aboriginal ancestry, and have heard that some aboriginal peoples looked sort of European, whether if that was intermarriage with settlers or just because they looked that way, I’m not sure.

I’ve met at least three locals with Dutch ancestry. It definitely is a thing. But as with indigenous blood and even Hakka, some families may not even disclose the fact to later generations.

Don’t forget there were a lot of foreigners in Taiwan in the late 19th century when Taiwan was opened to foreign trade after the Treaty Of Tientsin . So 5 generations back would take you to that period.

Yes. The Dutch drove out the Spanish from Northern Taiwan back in 1642. In 1644 the Dutch rebuilt the abandoned fort Santo Domingo, and renamed it Fort Anthony after Saint Anthony of Padua.

After Coyett’s surrender to Koxinga in 1661, the Dutch stayed in the North, holding on to Tamsui and Jilong. In 1664, they rebuilt the Spanish’s Fort San Salvador, which the Dutch obliterated twenty years ago, in 1642, and renamed it Noord Holland.

By then Koxinga’d been dead for 2 years, his son Zheng Jin was in charge. The Dutch worked with the Manchus to attack Zheng Jin’s positions in Amoy and Kinmen, but the Manchus failed to deliver the promise to help the Dutch retake Taioan (Tainan). In retaliation of the Dutch’s attacks, Zheng Jin took Tamsui, and the two sides were in stalemate for the next 4 years, which made it difficult for the Dutch to do business. Eventually the Dutch left for good in 1668, after blowing up their Noord Holland fort.

[quote=“Celestialnaut”]
I ask this, because I am in my early thirties and I’ve been told that a grandmother five generations ago is Dutch. Have not gotten that verified through genealogical records yet, and 23AndMe seems to disagree, so I’m wondering if it’s possible at all.[/quote]

If you are a woman and that Dutch grandmother is a direct maternal ancestor, meaning she is your mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s or something like that, then a mtDNA test from you could determine if that was the case.

Hansioux, a generation is 30 years, so there is no way 5 cycles gets us back to 1668.

I was thinking that as well. It would at most take use back to the Qing dynasty.

I was thinking that as well. It would at most take use back to the Qing dynasty.[/quote]

Which is why I think her European ancestor may well have come over in the late 19th century after Taiwan was opened up to foreign trade.

Good point. I’ve heard plenty of people throw “Dutch” around in connection with perceived foreign characteristics, probably a convenient moniker in most cases.

Good point. I’ve heard plenty of people throw “Dutch” around in connection with perceived foreign characteristics, probably a convenient moniker in most cases.[/quote]

Gives new meaning to that popular Taiwanese-English phrase “go Dutch”. :sunglasses:

Do they have the charts to prove it?

Taiwanese claiming Dutch ancestry is kind of like Americans claiming Cherokee ancestry: a common claim that’s usually false but can be true.

I was thinking that as well. It would at most take use back to the Qing dynasty.[/quote]

Which is why I think her European ancestor may well have come over in the late 19th century after Taiwan was opened up to foreign trade.[/quote]

I don’t think Asian man and European woman paring in Qing dynasty Taiwan was a common thing though. If that’s the time frame, it’d be more plausible for the grandmother to be the daughter of an European man and a Taiwanese woman. If that’s the case, there is no DNA test that can verify the claim.

I was thinking that as well. It would at most take use back to the Qing dynasty.[/quote]

Which is why I think her European ancestor may well have come over in the late 19th century after Taiwan was opened up to foreign trade.[/quote]

I don’t think Asian man and European woman paring in Qing dynasty Taiwan was a common thing though. If that’s the time frame, it’d be more plausible for the grandmother to be the daughter of an European man and a Taiwanese woman. If that’s the case, there is no DNA test that can verify the claim.[/quote]

I’m sure I read somewhere that Koxinga’s men grabbed a bunch of Dutch women and girls when they defeated the Dutch and kept them as wives. Although it’s more than 5 generations ago, legends can be inaccurate about dates and details while being based on a kernel of truth. Perhaps the family legend of a Dutch grandmother 5 generations ago has been passed on for 15 generations.

From wiki [quote]During the Siege of Fort Zeelandia, Koxinga executed Dutch missionary Antonius Hambroek and took his teenage daughter as a concubine.[37][38] Other Dutch women were sold to Chinese soldiers to become their wives.[39] In 1684 some of these Dutch wives were still captives of the Chinese.[40][/quote]

Not common, but it certainly did happen. George Leslie Mackay, for instance.

I also read that a bunch of Dutch from Tainan area ended up settling in Alishan area as they were friendly with the tribes from there. But it couldn’t have been very many. Im starting to lean towards at least some of the red hair being Melanesian origin…which remains in the han and later aboriginal population. So many people claiming a Dutch great grandmother just doesn’t hold up…it would have to WAY back. I read another estimate that there were only 200,000 people in Taiwan at that time and Dutch accounted for 0.5% of the population so MAYBE they could
Have a bigger effect through the years from being part of a founder population, especially given women weren’t free to migrate to Taiwan for a long time.

As for ‘Caucasian features’…they could be from some of the aboriginal tribes, Dutch, random intermixing through the centuries and also from more recent mainland Chinese who have more diverse heritage.

I bet you the Spanish, aside from religion, did spread the genes here. I have met clones of my Dad-a guy who already retired from this office- and my Mom -from Tainan, who also believed she had Duth ancestry- and I bet somewhere on this Island there is another Icon.

I have always believed there is a far more diverse racial component in the mix here in Taiwan than what meets the eye.

I was thinking that as well. It would at most take use back to the Qing dynasty.[/quote]

Which is why I think her European ancestor may well have come over in the late 19th century after Taiwan was opened up to foreign trade.[/quote]

I don’t think Asian man and European woman paring in Qing dynasty Taiwan was a common thing though. If that’s the time frame, it’d be more plausible for the grandmother to be the daughter of an European man and a Taiwanese woman. If that’s the case, there is no DNA test that can verify the claim.[/quote]

I’m sure I read somewhere that Koxinga’s men grabbed a bunch of Dutch women and girls when they defeated the Dutch and kept them as wives. Although it’s more than 5 generations ago, legends can be inaccurate about dates and details while being based on a kernel of truth. Perhaps the family legend of a Dutch grandmother 5 generations ago has been passed on for 15 generations.

From wiki [quote]During the Siege of Fort Zeelandia, Koxinga executed Dutch missionary Antonius Hambroek and took his teenage daughter as a concubine.[37][38] Other Dutch women were sold to Chinese soldiers to become their wives.[39] In 1684 some of these Dutch wives were still captives of the Chinese.[40][/quote][/quote]

Fascinating. I didn’t know that.

I’m pretty curious how much of this is borne out by genealogical records. DNA testing seems to provide an incomplete picture, at best. Isn’t it traditional practice for family clans to have copious notes?

The people who had the most contacts with the Dutch were flat land Aboriginals. Various Sirayan, Makatau villages, such as Tayouan (Tainan), Mattau (Madou), Tankoya (Kaohsiung), Pangsosia (Linbian) had sustained and mostly friendly interactions with the Dutch. To a lesser degree the Saaroa, Taokas, Babuza, Favorlang, Papora, Hoanya tribes in central Taiwan also had a lot of interactions with the Dutch. After they acquired Northern Taiwan from the Spanish, various Basay and Ketagalan villages probably also had extensive contacts with the Dutch.

Unfortunately, these people and cultures were decimated by Chinese colonialism, from Koxinga to the Qing dynasty. Under harsh discrimination and persecution, the survivors either dispersed to more remote regions or pretended to be Chinese as best they can. Most Pingpu Austronesians were matriarchal societies, that did not have the concept of patriarchal clans, nor did they keep copious notes. So in order to act Chinese, most of them had to make up copious notes for their family clan. Since they had very limited knowledge about China, sometimes there are obvious evidence of fabrication that leaves clues for later generations.

In addition, since they were Matriarchal societies, at one point the Sirayans would openly recruit Han males to marry into their tribes. These Han-ethnic men would eventually take over controls of the tribes, as the social-economical environment around them became predominantly patriarchal.

[quote=“headhonchoII”]I also read that a bunch of Dutch from Tainan area ended up settling in Alishan area as they were friendly with the tribes from there. But it couldn’t have been very many. Im starting to lean towards at least some of the red hair being Melanesian origin…which remains in the han and later aboriginal population. So many people claiming a Dutch great grandmother just doesn’t hold up…it would have to WAY back. I read another estimate that there were only 200,000 people in Taiwan at that time and Dutch accounted for 0.5% of the population so MAYBE they could
Have a bigger effect through the years from being part of a founder population, especially given women weren’t free to migrate to Taiwan for a long time.

As for ‘Caucasian features’…they could be from some of the aboriginal tribes, Dutch, random intermixing through the centuries and also from more recent mainland Chinese who have more diverse heritage.[/quote]

Dutch lineage is insignificant in Taiwan. Personally I’ve known only two(2) Taiwanese persons (both are my friends around my age) with caucasian features. However the strangest thing happened 3 days ago. My mother was chatting with me about her growing up. She said her Grandpa “looked Dutch.” She’s in her 60s now and I’ve never heard such a thing by her or anyone her side of family until 3 days ago. It suspect it is a kind suppressed memory, or it simply wasn’t something that she thought was worth mentioning

My mom lived with her grandpa in the same household until college. Her knowledge of geography and history is close to zero but she’s not old enough yet to be talking nonsense. Her grandpa would have been born in the 1890s.

I recently came across this book, a novel really, by Professor Stone Jyan-lung Lin (林建隆)

books.com.tw/products/0010593036

Lin is a SCU professor who has a Ph.D. in English & American Literature from Michigan State University. He is a famous poet and author. He calls himself the Gangster Professor, because at 23 he was wrongly accused of attempted manslaughter under the now defunct Gangster Prevention Act, and send to the Green Island for 3 years. He wrote about his life story of how he turned his life around, and in 2001, they even made a TV series based on his autobiography.

Long story short, he is retelling the story of a Sirayan woman named Kim-niû (金娘), who played an influential role in Lîm Sóng-bûn (林爽文)'s failed 1786 uprising.

In most written records, Kim-niu is simply mentioned as such:

[quote]Kim-niû, a savage woman from Verrovorongh (Ē-tām-tsuí, present day Wandan Pingdong). She is good with spells, and can sure illnesses. Rebel leader Tsng Tāi-tiân (莊大田) believes in her. The rebel army refers to her as the Goddess. Lîm Sóng-bûn gave her the title of Lady Column of the Nation (Tsū-kok hu-lîn).

金娘,下淡水番婦也,習符咒,能治病,大田信之,軍中咸呼仙姑,爽文亦封為柱國夫人。[/quote]

The Sirayan woman who is named after Kim-niû said Chinese histories distorts the facts. The Sirayans have relied on their own oral history to tell what really happened to Kim-niû.

In Professor Lin’s retelling of the story, Kim-niû is said to have Dutch ancestry.