Just wondering if learning from someone whose Chinese is not a first language would be good, bad or otherwise?
I figured it might be a different approach and the student could benefit from the experience of someone that’s ‘done it before you’, rather than someone that grew up not really remembering how they learnt it, but they ‘just did’.
[quote=“truant”]Just wondering if learning from someone whose Chinese is not a first language would be good, bad or otherwise?
I figured it might be a different approach and the student could benefit from the experience of someone that’s ‘done it before you’, rather than someone that grew up not really remembering how they learnt it, but they ‘just did’.[/quote]
Both my Chinese professors in the US were Westerners. Of course, they were not “foreigners” since they were both US citizens teaching in the US. And yes, they did give a different insight into the language than a native speaker could. As accomplished as the professors were, they both would defer to heir native-speaker teacing assistants for the final say.
By the way, this is a trait uncommon in Taiwan among those locals who claim to know English. I don’t know how many times I’ve been told by a local here that their (clearly erroneous) analysis of some fine point of English is right and my own analysis is wrong, even though I’m an educated native speaker of English with a TESOL certificate.
I’ll take me as a teacher over a native speaker without special training in teaching Chinese any day, because I know what I’m doing. And when I say “training” I mean real training in teaching languages, not the buxiban-sponsored two-week training courses the teacher candidates pay to attend. Of course I did a Ph.D in this area and have a wide background in Linguistics, plus many years in Chinese. I wasn’t a particularly good Chinese teacher back when I was teaching it at university in the States, largely because I was working under the supervision of a teacher who had little clue about methodology, and because we were tied to an insane schedule derived this way: “Well, there are 30 chapters in the book and we have 15 weeks in the semester, so that’s 2 chapters a week.” Or something like that. I try to forget the experience. 
For advanced classes, it’s really almost a necessity to have a native speaker (IMHO). You’re likely to be teaching writing and a high level of idiomatic usage, and delicate little points like when to use “le” and stuff like that. Those are not things that 99.99% of the foreigners who learn Chinese, no matter how long we spend doing it, ever really master. (I’ve actually met the non-Chinese person who is the 0.01% and yes, he does exist, but he’s busy doing Other Things so you won’t be getting him as your Chinese teacher anytime this millenium. 
)
I have had both non-Chinese and Chinese teachers of Chinese, and for my money both have their merits. It depends on what you’re trying to do. In Chinese, in particular, I believe that teaching writing really does take an educated native speaker. Hey, wait – that’s true for teaching English writing too. Writing is one of those things. But if you’re a beginner wanting to get up to speed rapidly in spoken Chinese – or any language – I prefer a well-trained non-native speaker, then a trained native speaker, and finally I’ll take the non-trained native speaker teacher, in that order. Usually, however, I end up with the non-trained non-teacher native speaker for a language exchange…
Thanks for your excellent reply. That is exactly what I have been pondering. Doing the basics with a well-trained non-native speaker, and then switching to a native speaker.
I started a 1-on-2 with a native speaker (linguistics student) recently, but that turned into a bad experience when her study took precedence…so now I am considering a more structured approach.
Also she didn’t take us through any sort of book, (just everyday vocab and sentences as they came up).
I think I would prefer a more structured approach with a book/system so I can go over stuff before and after sessions.
Thanks for your feedback.
would mind my teaching your children english?
Do you have real training as an English teacher? That’s the whole point here…if you do, then it wouldn’t be a problem teaching English to non-native-English speakers, and if those students shared your native language, it will likely be more effective than having an untrained but native speaker teach them.
The problem is that most Chinese teachers of English who have “trained” only in Taiwan are not up to date with methodology, and even if they are, they are often not allowed to USE what they know because of the structure of English teaching in Taiwan. Not their fault. It’s all “teaching to the test”. Teachers of the Chinese language have a bit more luxury as most programs are not geared to a test (although more and more HS programs in the US are looking toward the SAT-II in Chinese…)
I (English native speaker) taught Chinese, mostly evening classes, for nine years in London. Some of the courses I taught on my own, but for most I was teamed up with a native Chinese speaker, e.g. the students might have two lessons a week, one with a non-native speaker such as me, and one with a native speaker. Thus the students got the best of both worlds.
The main advantage for the students of learning from me was that I have been through the process of learning Chinese as a foreign language and studied grammar, enabling me answer all those “why” questions that adult learners come up with. Those who know me know that my Chinese pronunciation is also near native, which is something students will obviously be concerned about. The Chinese native teacher for his or her part has other advantages relative to me, of course.
[quote=“truant”]Just wondering if learning from someone whose Chinese is not a first language would be good, bad or otherwise?
I figured it might be a different approach and the student could benefit from the experience of someone that’s ‘done it before you’, rather than someone that grew up not really remembering how they learnt it, but they ‘just did’.[/quote]
Well, I guess that depends on what your learning purpose is and who you are going to communicate with.
Simply need to be communicating? Able to read news paper and get the main idea of each paragraph? Doing public speech? Sometimes it is even better for NCSB (non Chinese speaking background) students learning Chinese from NCSB teachers, because those teachers would be perfectly understanding of what going to be like in learning Chinese as a second/foreign language.
But, one concern is, how good is your Chinese going to be? Speaking Chinese like a native speaker with your Chinese friends? Making a REAL poem to your Chinese readers? Writing a business letter properly to Chinese clients? For those I don’t think NCSB could be the position to teach.
Learning a language from non-native speakers is fine only if you are not going to have a deep understanding.
[quote=“melindaming”]But, one concern is, how good is your Chinese going to be? Speaking Chinese like a native speaker with your Chinese friends? Making a REAL poem to your Chinese readers? Writing a business letter properly to Chinese clients? For those I don’t think NCSB could be the position to teach.
Learning a language from non-native speakers is fine only if you are not going to have a deep understanding.[/quote]
This is another important point…what does the STUDENT want to be able to do with his or her Chinese? I bet fairly few of them are aiming to write poetry or business letters in perfect Chinese. Maybe a few aspire to business letters, but poetry—? Realistically, most have different goals. Most people who acquired Chinese would not be in a position to teach business writing in Chinese, but most students are not going to be demanding this sort of course. Most questions about Chinese classes on this board are for the beginner/intermediate levels, not for advanced students.
One advantage with a Western teacher of Chinese is that the teacher has the same background as the student in terms of general education and learning attitudes. Some important points under this are that a Western teacher is going to place less emphasis on rote memorization or repetitive copying and will present material in a manner that Western students are more able to relate to the schema of learning they already have in their heads. (I’m assuming for the purpose of this argument that the teacher is Western and the students are as well.) How many students of Chinese have people met who like their Chinese teacher perfectly well but think s/he is crazy because of some of the things s/he does or says in class?
You can argue that “immersion” is a way of transmitting cultural information which is part of mastering the language, but it seems that it would be useful to have a foundation in the language before having to deal with a lot of concepts that are also equally strange to the learner. Isn’t that why newer textbooks for English learners in Taiwan emphasize talking about Taiwan in English rather than Western things??
I understood the teaching methods and the training process of teachers is the biggest issue round this thread. But just forget about it, go back to the beginning of who masters/teaches/understands the language better.
I guess we were all forgotten to discuss one issue: teaching Chinese in English (or own languages) or Chinese? It does matter, doesn’t it?
What I am unsure is if teaching Chinese in Chinese is better for NCBS students? If positive, how come we believe non-native speakers better teachers than natives? It does make sense only if teaching Chinese in own languages of NCBS teachers.
Another issues is, do we learn Chinese as a second or foreign language? A second language means you can to be proficiency like a native speaker, because you may own the native environment, for instant, ABCs (Australian born Chinese) are more likely to learn Chinese in a native way. But foreign language doesn’t mean so. Are we talking about teaching Chinese as a second language? I guess not. So, it could be fine for NCBS students learning Chinese from NCBS teachers.
I just wonder what the point is if immersing in environment of the language isn’t that importance?
[quote=“melindaming”]Another issues is, do we learn Chinese as a second or foreign language? A second language means you can to be proficiency like a native speaker, because you may own the native environment, for instant, ABCs (Australian born Chinese) are more likely to learn Chinese in a native way. But foreign language doesn’t mean so. Are we talking about teaching Chinese as a second language? I guess not. So, it could be fine for NCBS students learning Chinese from NCBS teachers.
I just wonder what the point is if immersing in environment of the language isn’t that importance?[/quote]I think you make too much of the second language/immersion thing.
One of the few clear and consistent findings in second language acqusition research is that some kind of formal learning is a definite plus. That means having classes in the language. With few exceptions, immersion alone, with no classes, is at best a very inefficient way of learning.
One of the key features of a good teacher in the second language context is that they gradually make the outside world, the immersion environment, comprehensible. Learners have to reach a certain level before they can make use of the rich and complex input available to them. The teacher’s skill in facilitating this seems to me a more important factor than whether he/she is an advanced or a native speaker.
One of the strongest factors determining students’ success or failure in learning a second or foreign language is the extent to which they identify with speakers of that language; to which they seem themselves as peers or as group members. Could the cultural background of the teacher work with this factor? I can envisage cases where it would.
IIRC, you’ve got your definitions mixed up. A learning a “second language” is when the language being learned is also spoken natively in place it’s being taught, “foreign language” is when it’s not. So learning Chinese in Taiwan is second language learning, while learning it in Australia is foreign language learning. I think that’s what it was.
[quote=“ironlady”]You can argue that “immersion” is a way of transmitting cultural information which is part of mastering the language, but it seems that it would be useful to have a foundation in the language before having to deal with a lot of concepts that are also equally strange to the learner. Isn’t that why newer textbooks for English learners in Taiwan emphasize talking about Taiwan in English rather than Western things??[/quote]Krashen advocates bilingual education for young second language learners for similar reasons. The efficiency and ease of language learning is greatly improved if the learner already has some knowledge of the topic material.
As regards my practice in the English as a Foreign Language classroom, I don’t take this as a prohibition on ever talking about baked beans or Christmas puddings in English, but the general idea is that students can identify and feel a connection with topic material. With adults it’s even more flexible of course and cultural difference is a rich and fascinating discussion topic through which language can be acquired. But that’s talking about both cultures, not trying to mould students into being little westerners as a few teachers – and a few students – seem to think necessary.
[quote=“melindaming”]What I am unsure is if teaching Chinese in Chinese is better for NCBS students? If positive, how come we believe non-native speakers better teachers than natives? It does make sense only if teaching Chinese in own languages of NCBS teachers.
[/quote]
Having a non-native speaker teacher (NNST) is not just a matter of teaching in English instead of Chinese (assuming the students are native English speakers). Ask anyone who has had language training in the West in whatever language to compare that experience with their experinece learning Chinese. I’m 99% certain the experiences will vary hugely. Westerners just take a different attitude and methodology and philosophy on language teaching and teaching in general. Hard words – but that is why Chinese teaching materials are still a decade or two behind those for other widely-taught languages – and far, far behind ESL/EFL texts and materials. Tradition… 
For an overseas Chinese person, learning Chinese in Oz or Taiwan would typically be second language learning: they’re probably going to use it as a second language in their community. You or I (no Chinese background) would be the same if we wanted to get involved in the Chinese community back home, talk to old people in a home or something.
If someone with a non-Chinese background comes to Taiwan to study, that’s almost certainly foreign language learning. The same might apply to 華僑, if they’re not learning in order to communicate with relatives back home.
So it’s not who you are, or where you’re learning. It’s what you’re going to do with the language once you’ve learnt it:
talk to compatriots: second lang
talk to foreigners: foreign lang
It’s easier to give an English learning account really:
Chinese immigrant in USA: ESL
Indian in India: ESL
Taiwanese student in Taiwan: EFL
Taiwanese student in UK: EFL
I don’t think that’s quite how I’ve normally seen it defined.
Usually second language means that the learner will be using the language on a daily basis – usually in a place where it is spoken as the dominant or co-dominant language.
Foreign language usually means that the learner is learning the language, but will not be using it regularly in daily life. An example of that would be a student learning French in the US, or English in Taiwan (despite what the government would sometimes like to believe about English in Taiwan… )
Of course different writers may have different definitions of these terms depending on what their particular agenda is in whatever they’re writing at the moment (especially journal articles and presentations.)
Well, the definition may be different, but the resulting categories seem to be the same as mine! (apart from the bit about the SL probably being he dominant one in the learner’s home environment)
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I don’t understand why one would travel 13,000 miles to come to Taiwan to learn Chinese from a westerner?
Maybe because the classes that are offered in the language schools are not geared toward the needs of beginners from Western cultures? Maybe because language schools all assume that people want to learn to read, write, speak and understand, not just speak and understand? I could go on and on…
(but I would say that a teacher wanting to attract students might want to spell-check an ad…)