Do NGOs actually do anything?

Politics International Politics
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Sorry out horseback riding and eating steak and drinking wine.

Let´s take Green Peace. What has it accomplished directly and indirectly and cite all to show where its input did not merely ¨create awareness¨ but made an appreciable difference.

Whales? How long has that been going on? 40 years? has whaling ended? has Norway or Japan or … ceased to engage in whaling? What has all the television coverage of their boat ramming exploits done but give those who participated some sort of street cred with their professional protester pranceristsas?

Famine… China and India solved the problem through development which has the climate change alarmists going nuts but they are NOT starving. So, question: More development or more starvation? Which are you going to pick? Meanwhile, Africa still needs all the NGO assistance. When do you finally decide to pull the plug? Ditto for all those engaged in fighting poverty, improving reading, buttressing our educational system.

Seems to me that one very important organization that provided hospitals, schools, charitable organizations and a sense of standards and moral values is the Catholic Church. But oh… some priests abused some boys and there was a coverup in many cases. So we can throw out the 95% of the Church that did good because 5% or less was bad? Are we to hold foster parents and the system, our prisons, our orphanages to the same standards when it comes to abuse? Why is it that the huge contribution of the church is never mentioned and when and if the church is mentioned it is to slam the Church for abuse or the pope for not approving of condom usage?

Where I live now 80 PERCENT of the education and health care in rural areas is provided by church organizations despite the plethora of NGOs. And that is 50 percent of the entire nation despite the plethora of NGOs. What gives? Why is the church or church groups ignored but NGOs are to be fawned upon like they are the second coming?

And while we are at it… can we open the books and look at the percentage that goes to administrative costs for each of these NGOs? I would really like to take a closer look at this. Remember the big scandal that hit the United Way, Red Cross and Feed the World? Are we really that far off from those days when more than 50 cents on the dollar and some times up to 90 cents were going to administrative costs! Seriously!

And has anyone answered my question? Let me put it in bold once again.

Lefties like NGOs
Lefties like government programs
Lefties want more government
Lefties want more NGOs creating awareness

So… then the question becomes… if government is NOT the answer and we need more NGOs, would the supports of the same support abolishing the departments of education, health and human services, housing and urban development, and the environment as NGOs do a better job? And if NGOs collaborate with government then we would want to see some appreciable progress on those aims to prove that their solutions are the answer. Yet, clearly when it came to health, education and feeding and employing the people, hundreds of millions benefited through development from more capitalism and freer markets NOT government or NGO assistance and aid. Right? So? What is the point again? Where is the benefit?

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check out this link. According to the site 3% of Green Peace´s funds go to admin costs. Anyone see the weakness in this accounting method? I do! Ask me teacher! I do!

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Well, this was pretty easy. So much for our underpaid NGO workers. This is from a job placement agency. See below:

[quote]

Average NGO Salaries
The average salary for ngo jobs is $64,000. Average ngo salaries can vary greatly due to company, location, industry, experience and benefits.

This salary was calculated using the average salary for all jobs with the term “ngo” anywhere in the job listing. [/quote]

simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-NGO

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[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“BigJohn”] NGOs do accomplish things.

…no one here has offered any evidence that NGO’s are useless as Fred said.

I consider the point won.[/quote]

Well, you can have that point. It isn’t really a great victory. Not a very high bar to reach. NGOs are not useless and they do things. :laughing:[/quote]

I’m a humble man with humble goals.

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TMan…Quite right.
They spend money
They soothe liberal guilt

Not all, of course, some like Oxfam, Human Rights Watch, Medecins Sans Frontieres, or Amnesty do a good bit towards relieving human suffering and actually making a contribution the betterment of humanity.

But all too many are nothing more than scams designed to separate the willing from the money in the name of “doing something good…really really good.”

Need more information?

NGOs: The Self-Appointed Altruists

NGOs Gone Bad

Good Cop/Bad Cop: Environmental NGOs and their Strategies Toward Business

Hiding the Real Africa:Why NGOs prefer bad news
(hint…its where the $$$$ is)

NGOs — Good Intentions, Bad Outcomes?
(tracked back to…Bezerkely, California…imagine that)

Not all doom and gloom however. IMO, the proliferation of NGOs has been, in several ways a good thing.
They point out and get publicity for many ‘causes’ that would otherwise not receive public view.
They, the NGOs, get ‘first responder’ help on the scene, along with the attendant film crews, with their legion of altruistic staff just waiting for the “next big thing.” Which, unfortunately happens all too ofter and with predictable regularity.
Even through their top-heavy staffing and over-funded (read - over-paid) hierarchy, some $s do occasionally filter down to the needed souls at the bottom - the ones the crisis is all about…in the first place.

So, yes, there are some good points to NGOs. Do these few good points outweigh the corruption and, in some cases out-right damage (see dam article above) they do?

Mebbe…Mebbe not…depends on where your conscience resides I guess.

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How about Clayoquot Sound? The NGOs worked with the First Nations and together were responsible for preserving much of that - for now at least. And certainly, if logging in its pristine old growth valleys does proceed rapidly, then it will instantly become a news story and you can expect kombie-loads of protesters to materialize out of the bong haze.

There are many parks and preserved areas that NGOs helped campaign for in BC. Here is the usual scenario: Government had public meetings, business groups showed up to explain why mining run-off was no problem, why it was better to cut down all the trees in this area, build lots of big roads into it etc. The NGOs worked with local greenies to put together effective counterarguments and present at the public meetings, influencing the results. Results varied, but were almost certainly better than if the NGOs had not helped the locals. NGOs work as a counterweight to business.Is this why you dislike them so much?

The 1986 whaling moratorium continues in large part because of groups like the Sea Shepherd keep people aware of it.

No public awareness, no pressure on governments, no action - in many cases.

In developing countries, NGOs often augment the work of government.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Mumbai/Police-get-help-from-NGOs-in-cracking-down-on-prostitution/Article1-708777.aspx

If at times and in places other actors do more then NGOs, then fine, it is not a competition.

Fred, face it: if your point is that “NGOs are not perfect”, then there is no argument here. Of course they aren’t. Many of them are misguided, inefficient, unaccountable. A lot of the socioeconomic development NGOs didn’t accomplish much at all, especially as you point out compared to economic development.

But overall the NGO movement has helped get action on issues, and lay the groundwork for future issues, environmentally and socially.

BTW, are you aware that many NGOs have substantial percentages of their workers who are volunteers? This makes your salary figures useless, as they misrepresent what the average NGO worker is getting. Your figure is based only on salaried workers.

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Nice try but meh…

edition.cnn.com/CNNI/Programs/in … index.html

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Mod note: This was split off from the climate change thread.

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Wow. Long way from your earlier contention. Now, how many is many? Shall we say 80% are not achieving anything of value and certainly no where near their stated aims of ¨helping?¨ or what would be the figure that you want to throw about on this? I have supplied lots of figures and cites-sites but you? Where are yours?

I disagree. Prove it. Your contention not mine.

Bullshit. Hospitals and schools have interns and volunteers. Tons of them. Wall Street uses interns and other volunteers if you call them that as people want to get in the door. Same with ad agencies, law firms, you name it. Where are your figures to prove your point that most of this is volunteers? I proved that NGO workers are vastly NOT underpaid. So most are working for free? Show me that it is more so than any other industry. Where are YOUR numbers?

Many thanks to Tainan Cowboy for the links. Pretty much sums up my view.

Again, I will repeat my question: IF lefties believe in more government, should NGOs no longer benefit from the charitable tax deduction? OR do lefties believe that government has proved incapable and so these organizations are needed? in which case, do they support getting rid of the departments of environment, housing and urban development, health and human services, and education. I am STILL waiting for an answer to my question and I know FULL well why no one wants to answer.

Anybody want to call Green Peace on its 3% admin fees figure? Let me know if you have figured out that little trick. It is easy as pie. Just look through its budget. Where does most of the money go? Oh… yeah… 3% hahahaha

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Wow. Long way from your earlier contention. [/quote]

Not at all. The reality is quite complicated, as anyone familiar with the NGO movement would know.

[quote]
Now, how many is many? Shall we say 80% are not achieving anything of value and certainly no where near their stated aims of ¨helping?¨ or what would be the figure that you want to throw about on this? I have supplied lots of figures and cites-sites but you? Where are yours?[/quote]

You have provided figures about BP spending billions on renewable energy, doubtless in part the result of a need to have a green image, due to awareness raising from NGO’s! If they can get oil companies to spend billions then they are far from useless. And you have not shown any figures that show NGOs are useless, nor refuted any examples such as Clayoquot Sound.

[quote]

I disagree. Prove it. Your contention not mine.[/quote]
I have shown examples in my posts. Disprove them.

[quote]

Bullshit. Hospitals and schools have interns and volunteers. Tons of them. [/quote]

So? That is completely irrelevant. We are talking about NGOs and Wall Street.

[quote]
Wall Street uses interns and other volunteers if you call them that as people want to get in the door. Same with ad agencies, law firms, you name it. Where are your figures to prove your point that most of this is volunteers? I proved that NGO workers are vastly NOT underpaid. So most are working for free? Show me that it is more so than any other industry. Where are YOUR numbers?[/quote]

Oh, Wall Street has even close to the same percentage of volunteer workers as the NGO movement! :roflmao: That is ridiculous. Where are YOUR numbers? You don’t have any do you?

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“most Africans will have to starve in order to make it onto the evening news.”
Nice try but meh…
edition.cnn.com/CNNI/Programs/in … index.html[/quote]
If one has the time, looks close enough at each linked article and cares to parse each sentence, I’m certain that a grammar error may also be found.
Some may find this discovery to be gratifying in a self-gratifying kind of way.

And if one completely disregards ‘context’…whoo hoo!..…keep the Handy Wipes handy! (play on words there :wink: )

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youtube.com/watch?v=IilnO2Wl … re=related

It’s not a grammar error it is a factual error. A major news organization (probably the biggest one in the world) runs positive coverage on Africa every day, and has been for a number of years. I didn’t need to read your articles to know that many areas of africa are booming because that has been discussed in magazine articles for years now.

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Two other thoughts:

If volunteers are so important to NGOs, then there is no need for NGOs to receive money. They can rely 100% on volunteers and still achieve their aims so let´s cut off all funding to NGOs.

If the view is that NGOs are needed, that would indicate that government is not doing its job. Why is this so hard to answer? Why is collaboration needed? Why do we need more government AND more NGOs? If NGOs are stepping up to the plate because government is failing then we need less government and more NGOs, right? Which is it? ANSWER!

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So NGO’s are useless are they? They never accomplish anything?

Tell that to this woman. Only through the work of an NGO has she been able to have an opportunity to get some skills training and education. Otherwise, she’d be begging on the streets or forced to sell her body.

Or this teenage girl. A victim of human trafficking. Kidnapped and sold into slavery as a young girl, beaten, raped, forced to work, no opportunities for schooling. Only because of an NGO rescuing her is she now able to live free, go to school and have an opportunity of a relatively normal life. She can even joke around for the camera. A year ago she was a slave.

These things wouldn’t be possible without funding, volunteers and the cooperation of governments.

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And this is what you call my 80% remark? More bullshit on your part. Read my exact quote.

Does that sound like I am offering 80% or asking you to define what is ¨many are not¨ in your previous remark? especially given the second part of the setence where I ask YOU to define the figure. Have you?

Also, let me take this opportunity to get back to my point. Let´s not target this discussion along the original lines. What are NGOs doing about climate change except blackmailing corporations into giving them money so that they can attend international conferences in exotic locales. Where is the progress? Success? accomplishment when it comes to global warming or climate change other than as so richly been expressed here in raising awareness? :unamused:

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[quote=“fred smith”]CFImages: And would you say that the fact that India and China have developed have done more to give women opportunities or is it all from NGOs? mostly from NGOs?

[/quote]

It’s not an either / or situation. Some is from development, some is from NGO’s. On the broader scale, overall development possibly has more importance whereas on the more local scale NGO’s do. You can’t simplify it to say that one or the other is responsible.

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[quote=“cfimages”]So NGO’s are useless are they? They never accomplish anything?

Tell that to this woman. Only through the work of an NGO has she been able to have an opportunity to get some skills training and education. Otherwise, she’d be begging on the streets or forced to sell her body. [/quote]

Details? How did an NGO accomplish this? What skills?

Again how about the story behind the picture with some details? What country was this? This sounds like yet another case where a government has failed their failed miserably to perform it’s most basic function

Without funding from where? Cooperation of governments??? Are you serious about this? Or, by cooperation you mean that the government’s failures provide NGOs with these causes they can jump up and down about?

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from 2002…maybe they have “changed their ways”…maybe… :unamused:

NGOs present false images of Africa
(excert)
[i]"A coalition of Canadian non-government organisations, church groups, unions, and others with an interest in sub-Saharan Africa says that the images of Africa that have been presented in the media and fundraising activities have done much more harm than good for the people of Africa.

As Africa struggles to present a case for the G8 leaders to help it out of its present precarious economic situation, the activities of some non-governmental organisations have been seen as doing more harm than good to the continent.

It came to light during various sessions of the G8 and G6B summits that, in their fund raising activities, some NGOs present false images about Africa in order to attract donors.

The Africa-Canada Forum (ACF) articulated these sentiments on June 24. The ACF brought together NGOs, churches, unions, and solidarity groups from across Canada that have a specific interest in development issues and social justice in sub-Saharan Africa.

The ACF said these false images of Africa, if not curtailed, paint a bleak picture about a continent that has no hope, save depending on charity from the west. In the end, some donors, rather than sympathising with Africa, become reluctant to release funds for humanitarian activities. [/i]

As I mentioned, having seen some of these groups in action I do think that there are some NGOs that perform a valuable service. However it has devolved into just more parasites hooking into the cash-cow and living the high-life having “meetings” and releasing “situation statements” that always detail the need for more funds directed their way.

Of course, if their demise would seriously hurt the Range Rover bidness in Africa… :sunglasses:

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[quote=“Gman”][quote=“cfimages”]So NGO’s are useless are they? They never accomplish anything?

Tell that to this woman. Only through the work of an NGO has she been able to have an opportunity to get some skills training and education. Otherwise, she’d be begging on the streets or forced to sell her body. [/quote]

Details? How did an NGO accomplish this? What skills?[/quote]

Read craigfergusonimages.com/2011 … anization/

Again how about the story behind the picture with some details? What country was this? This sounds like yet another case where a government has failed their failed miserably to perform it’s most basic function[/quote]

The story is as described. Sold into slavery and eventually rescued through the work of an NGO. Human trafficking usually involves more than one country - in this case there were 3 involved.

Without funding from where? Cooperation of governments??? Are you serious about this? Or, by cooperation you mean that the government’s failures provide NGOs with these causes they can jump up and down about?[/quote]

Funding from whoever or wherever donations and contributions are available. Of course the cooperation of governments is required - from simple things like charitable status to approvals and permissions to operate to more complex areas like cross-border policework and enforcement of laws and treaties.