Sorry, on this one I can only be honest, “some kind of nothingness” is either woolly thinking or woolly writing. The original comment suggested nothingness would be unpleasant in some way - of course it wouldn’t. It would be nothing.[/quote]The original comment suggested exactly the opposite, actually. I said that it was a comforting illusion that we fall into some kind of nothingness at the end of life. I do think that quite a few people believe in “some kind of nothingness” in the sense that they haven’t thought about it very much. But you can take what I wrote to mean either that, or actual nothingness. Either way, I see it as a comforting illusion that some people hold.
Sorry, on this one I can only be honest, “some kind of nothingness” is either woolly thinking or woolly writing. The original comment suggested nothingness would be unpleasant in some way - of course it wouldn’t. It would be nothing.[/quote]The original comment suggested exactly the opposite, actually. I said that it was a comforting illusion that we fall into some kind of nothingness at the end of life. I do think that quite a few people believe in “some kind of nothingness” in the sense that they haven’t thought about it very much. But you can take what I wrote to mean either that, or actual nothingness. Either way, I see it as a comforting illusion that some people hold.[/quote]
Fair enough. I didn’t refer back to the original comment on this one. It’s other people’s woolly thinking that there is a comforting “some kind of nothingness.” A kind of nothing, taken literally, remains absurd.
A possible answer to the original question is that, for many people, the “supernatural” stories are taken as representative of an overall experience rather than necessarily an external occurrence. Religion is about inner journeys, after all, and about a reality that’s beyond the merely material.
I realize that for many non-religious people, that would seem to put such supernatural happenings in the realm of the metaphorical or even the delusionary. But from from the practitioner’s perspective, these kinds of teachings are bigger than metaphor and beyond individual deluded perception. They are certainly real in some sense.
As for what languages a god speaks, I’m not sure that it matters that much. If there were a creator god, wouldn’t it make sense that he or she would have a way to communicate that was beyond language, or that sounded to each person like their own native language?
Hey what a minute now, I thought I said in one of my posts that I understand why people dont believe in G-d or dont have religion…I think I said something a long those lines, and included saying that reason and science work. And I’ll say it again, they really do. I see where youre coming from, and yes, I think freedom FROM religion is a extremely valuable thing as well, so I agree with you on there…I think some of your stuff maybe was a little blunt but whatever, I’d rather you be honest and clear about your feelings than not, and with stuff like this, bluntness is often better than beating around the bush. You’re addressing someone else in this post, but I just thought I’d chime in…
[quote=“ice raven”]Re the comments quoted by Charlie Jack,
It’s very interesting that none of the religious readers, save one, have come back and answered these claims in a meaningful way. They’ve replied by just throwing shit at the questioners, and then saying “unfair,” so to speak. Their behaviour reminds me of climate change denialists.
[/quote]
What claims are you talking about?
claims = the comments quoted by Charlie Jack.
[quote=“Joesox”]A possible answer to the original question is that, for many people, the “supernatural” stories are taken as representative of an overall experience rather than necessarily an external occurrence. Religion is about inner journeys, after all, and about a reality that’s beyond the merely material.
I realize that for many non-religious people, that would seem to put such supernatural happenings in the realm of the metaphorical or even the delusionary. But from from the practitioner’s perspective, these kinds of teachings are bigger than metaphor and beyond individual deluded perception. They are certainly real in some sense.
As for what languages a god speaks, I’m not sure that it matters that much. If there were a creator god, wouldn’t it make sense that he or she would have a way to communicate that was beyond language, or that sounded to each person like their own native language?[/quote]
You still don’t get it. There are people who believe that religious texts contain the word of god. They will establish rules and laws on that basis that can affect us. Part of the reason they believe in the word of god is that there have been miracles. If the miracles did or did not happen is exactly the issue. Whether or not god actually spoke or not IS the issue. IF there is a god who wanted to communicate with us he could speak any language he wanted. The question is: What do you think is more likely, that people hallucinated his voice (common observable phenomenon) or that he actually spoke, something we have absolutle no evidence of. If you take away the reality of miracles and the reality of god having spoken what you are left with is beautiful texts (though that’s a bit generous - it isn’t all all that beautiful) that was created entirley by man and could be replaced entirely by man. If religious people were not trying to influence politics this would be nothing more than a interesting puzzle, but since they are it’s essential that it be understood clearly.
Nothing here contradicts the idea that there isn’t profound wisdom to be found in religious texts. It only points to the conclusion that it was created entirely by man. A humanist has faith. Faith in human beings.
I stick by: ‘It’s all silly stuff.’
I’m not too sure who my audience is but to me it is all silly stuff. I’m comfortable with that.
Personally, I grew up as a Catholic. There was plenty of religious input, but if I’m honest with myself, I know that I could distinguish from a very young age between what I’d been told and what I felt or had observed. I knew, for example, if I wanted to get along with someone it was best to put myself in their position see how I would feel under similar circumstances and make a judgment on that person and their reactions. From there, I could determine how I felt about them and most importantly how they must be feeling. I knew then a lot of what I was feeling and relating to could be represented and articulated externally and was being in church and by my family even though I seemed deficient in that capacity. However, I listened for it. When I got it, I adopted it without question. I just did. That is probably instinct because I’m pretty sure I wasn’t a necessarily bright child. Though, I did have a certain certainty that I didn’t know it all and there was a world outside myself I needed to survive in.
Later in life, that realization served me well - the distinction between what you have been told and what you’ve felt out for yourself is fundamental to maturing. You wouldn’t jump in the lake just because someone asked you to. You might if there is a fire though. But in terms of maturing that is just one of the walls and each one has to be climbed or at least challenged. I understand that instinctively. Simply by virtue of being alive, I discovered that logical thinking is helpful in rounding the edges off my irrational impulses. I noticed it is possible to see the future or at least what it might most likely look like given xyz. That was helpful. It settled my worries and natural neurosis. I rationalized stuff – even bad stuff, perhaps in some people’s minds irreconcilable stuff, for the sake of my survival. I came to view some stuff as silly and fundamentally unhelpful. It transgressed my moral code of empathy, compassion, and understanding. I started to feel used. I started to believe organized religion was full of shanksters and hypocrites. I liked the stories of Jesus. “Turn the other cheek,” was one of my favorites. That’s probably obvious and also his own human thoughts on hypocrisy. I like that he had humility, showed incredible decency, and gave himself over to a higher power.I love the message of love. I don’t, however, believe it’s anything more than a story – a very powerful human story. I don’t believe there is a utopia whether in heaven or on earth, but I do believe you can find contentment, live a life that invites great things, cope with and enjoy the seasons of sadness and happiness. However, over and above my own contentment, it might by happenstance fall upon me to be chivalrous and see myself as others might. When I do feel like that (as we probably all do from time to time), I use my own death and it’s certainty to at least be decent.
I tell myself that I’ve been dead already, meaning before I was born, so how do I want to be remembered? I ask myself who I am now, and demand selflessness to give me perspective, not what am I going to get out of all this. That’s silly to me. It’s a personal thing. That’s also why I liked bob’s succinct piece on his own beliefs about religion because they fit neatly with my own understanding. Well done bob.
[quote=“bob”][quote=“Joesox”]A possible answer to the original question is that, for many people, the “supernatural” stories are taken as representative of an overall experience rather than necessarily an external occurrence. Religion is about inner journeys, after all, and about a reality that’s beyond the merely material.
I realize that for many non-religious people, that would seem to put such supernatural happenings in the realm of the metaphorical or even the delusionary. But from from the practitioner’s perspective, these kinds of teachings are bigger than metaphor and beyond individual deluded perception. They are certainly real in some sense.
As for what languages a god speaks, I’m not sure that it matters that much. If there were a creator god, wouldn’t it make sense that he or she would have a way to communicate that was beyond language, or that sounded to each person like their own native language?[/quote]
You still don’t get it. There are people who believe that religious texts contain the word of god. They will establish rules and laws on that basis that can affect us. Part of the reason they believe in the word of god is that there have been miracles. If the miracles did or did not happen is exactly the issue. Whether or not god actually spoke or not IS the issue. IF there is a god who wanted to communicate with us he could speak any language he wanted. The question is: What do you think is more likely, that people hallucinated his voice (common observable phenomenon) or that he actually spoke, something we have absolutle no evidence of. If you take away the reality of miracles and the reality of god having spoken what you are left with is beautiful texts (though that’s a bit generous - it isn’t all all that beautiful) that was created entirley by man and could be replaced entirely by man. If religious people were not trying to influence politics this would be nothing more than a interesting puzzle, but since they are it’s essential that it be understood clearly.
Nothing here contradicts the idea that there isn’t profound wisdom to be found in religious texts. It only points to the conclusion that it was created entirely by man. A humanist has faith. Faith in human beings.[/quote]You still don’t get it. I’m saying that to to many religious people, a god speaking is real, and that that reality doesn’t have to be limited to either a guy in the clouds shouting through a big megaphone, or the kind of hallucination that comes from lack of sleep, etc. You’re at it again with the oversimplification. Someone said something useful earlier in the thread about trying to understand religion on its own terms. A good idea. And of course for anyone who’s serious about learning how various religions think of faith, revelation, etc, there are many very good books on the subject written by people a lot smarter and more eloquent than me.
Okay, ice raven. Just for you.
I gave plenty. So did Charlie and others. Question answered.
I don’t know everyone. The question is not specific enough. But obviously many do.
Question in bad faith. Not interested in answering.
Question in bad faith. Not interested in answering.
???
As far as I’m concerned, if you are sincere in learning about what religious people think you will be open and non-judgmental.
I gave a full answer to this.
So?
Not a question.
Not a question.
Nonsense. Read some books on the topic. No need to extemporize with only your ignorance to go on.
What a weird question. Still don’t know what it means.
No, it’s not reasonable. The whole point of a transcendent god is that he transcends normal physical reality.
No true.
Not really.
Not a question.
Question in bad faith. Yes. It is.
There is if you call a 1-800 prayer line.
Not a question. But thanks for sharing.
Assertion. How can one argue with this?
Some do. Some don’t. Those who do would not see them as recognizably human stories. Again, if you want people to answer your questions you can’t define the answers beforehand.
Too esoteric for me.
Someplace better.
Not a question.
Yes.
Hard to believe that “all that stuff” is meant to be respectful.
And be judged rather than listened to.
Then do so. And listen.
I don’t care if you dismiss religious experience. But if you claim to want answers then shut up and listen to them without judgment.
Okay.
If you say so.
If you say so.
[quote=“bob”]There is no reason to believe that god ever spoke so there is no basis for religious authority. The Pope should be in jail right now actually. Instead he is free and engaged in all manner of unethical and hypocritical conduct (discouraging condom use and then claiming to be concerned with the environment). Meanwhile the catholic church is rapidly expanding on it’s power base in Africa. No surprise there.
There is a pretty good test of whether or not the Pope is lying. If his lips are moving, he’s lying.[/quote]
Okay. I don’t disagree with you him. No fan of the pope.
Thanks for your input.
No, I get that bit. I just think it is, lets say “poorly thought through.” You can tell when somebody is “thinking things through poorly” when they start talking about “their” reality vs. “your” reality in relation to external events. There aren’t two realities. There is one with two different perspectives on it. Religious texts are filled with stories about god having said this and god having said that. That is an observable reality that can be analyzed. The notion that it is real to some people is like saying that they can believe any old shit they want, which they can, but when they ask other people to believe it they are going to run into trouble. It’s the way it work’s. It’s the way it should work but we have all been hamstrung on the idea that it is somehow rude to discuss religion so directly. It isn’t rude. It is neccesary.
Btw, my experience with religion was similar to foxes except that I took it to be nonsense quite clearly from the start. Then one night I had adrean where GOD spoke to me and said I was going to hell for it. That was without a doubt the single most horrifying experience of a life filled with horrifying experiences. Later in high school a religious group spotted me as the vulnerable thing I was a filled my head with all manner of insane fundamentalist garbage. It is one time in my life that I look back and and say, yup, that was flat one insane. The overiding sense I have still have about is SHAME that I could have ever been so bloody stupid.
[quote=“ThreadKiller”]CharlieJack, I loved fruitloop’s questions, and feel they may have come out of a sincere bewilderment at how people can believe.[/quote] Okay, I’m sorry, it was arrogant, and even anti-intellectual of me not to take fruitloop’s questions seriously. I don’t want to go back through the thread, but I’ll answer the ones that I remember:
–Jesus travels through time, and he performs miracles for Australopithecus and Pithecanthropus, but not for Homo habilis.
–He also performs miracles for chimpanzees, but not for bonobos.
–Jesus ascended to Proxima Centauri, where he constructed an orbiting luxury pad, which is now his home base. He occasionally travels to other inhabited planets.
–God does not speak in machine language; he speaks in Unix assembly language, except on certain ceremonial occasions when he speaks Etruscan.
By Golly, Threadkiller, you’re right! The scales have fallen from my eyes, and I now see that fruitloop was asking these questions out of a sincere desire to learn more about people’s beliefs!
[quote=“ThreadKiller”]I made it clear in my own post that I do not equate atheism with intelligence and stupidity with religion.[/quote] Mighty big of ya.
[quote=“Threadkiller”]But I do call on my forumosan friends and other friends to validate their beliefs.[/quote] Hell, no! I’m not under any obligation to validate my beliefs in your eyes!
Debater? Holy smokes, holy smokes. Okay, here we go again, with OP’s original question:
How in the world could you interpret that as an invitation to debate?
But as for debate, what, debate here? This place reminds me of the old joke about the two guys who get in a disagreement in a bar, and both jump off their bar stools, and one pulls a Bowie knife and lunges and slashes at the other, and the other guy jumps back and says, “Ha! Ya missed me!” and the guy with the Bowie knife says, “Man, shake your head.” Except that here, the decapitated guy wouldn’t shake his head, and some bunch or other would declare him the winner (in fact, they might do that even if his damn head fell off)!
[quote=“ThreadKiller”]Do you believe that I am doomed because I don’t believe in any god and do you believe that others believing in other gods are doomed? If you don’t, then okay. If you do, I find that extremely arrogant. And that should put anyone off believing.[/quote]I don’t know what’s gonna happen to any of us, including myself, and it’s none of my business what somebody else believes.
Ahhh. Okay.
Well I’ll take a stab at a few of them!
[quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“TwoTongues”]
I dunno about Jesus and planets and whatnot…but Homo Habilis our neighborhood handy man ( :roflmao: anyone else get that haha) - for me- is just as G-d made as Homo Sapiens. I dont know what happened to good ol Habilis when he died, but I dont know what happens to humans either. I trust G-d has a plan for everything that comes into this world, and I hope its a favorable one! Loads and loads of people will hate on me for appreciating evolution and being “religious”, but I think evolution is incredible and it made me even more in awe of what has happened in this world, I’m a weirdo tho. Something is creating an molding something totally incredible here…something that is not necessarily functional in every way (bipedalism is shitty for childbirth, and it does a number on our backs…) but we became this, we became creatures with incredibly unique characteristics that no other animal has…that brings me back to G-d. Science makes this world even more beautiful than what meets the eyes, I think it helps the case for G-d, I dont think it hinders it.
Reason doesnt really seem to provide for humanity satisfactorily to me…G-d does answer that. I dunno what else to say…you are right, its a stretch to believe in G-d, why go out of ones way? Really, I think the only reason is if youre compelled to, if not then thats okay too.
I see what you mean, watching people kill each other over religion is NOT okay, all the stuff going on in America right now is ridiculous…but at the same time, people are shitty to each other, all the time. If its not about religion, its about something else. Religion brings many, many people together, for every one of those loud jerks causing problems in the name of “religion”, there’s probably a few hundred, thousand, whatever or more that are really good people who are faithful and derive a lot of joy, peace, and discipline from their religion. They hold themselves to a code, they try to reach for a higher, more elevated state of humanity/G-d that they wouldnt otherwise seek. I think jerks will always exist and always be dangerous…but I think this is because of their egotistical “I’m right and everyone must think like me blah blah all your base belong to us I must take over the world and make millions of dollars” shit that they use to make everyone else miserable - if its not their religion then its their ideas or theories or whatever. Those people just use religion as a crutch…if they didn’t have it they would find something else.
This fails to explain converts…I am a convert (well in the process) and I grew up with plenty social conditioning for the other way, and I’m going a completely opposite way after years of study and a lot of thought. One of the key aspects of my “conditioning” growing up was belief that Jesus was G-d, but whenever I prayed, I felt really weird praying to Jesus, it didnt feel right to me to have two names going on in my prayers…it felt wrong. I eventually faced this and started working through my beliefs…my culture didnt install this in me, I had to go find it in another religion/culture that I knew nothing about, it took me years to get there. I’ll always be studying and going along, but I think this has been achieved and will be continued to be achieved through much reasoning and careful analysis of what I am thinking and feeling.
Yes, people who have experienced issues in their lives often find religion to be what helps them pull themselves out…the discipline, hope, moral codes, increased respect for oneself, feeling of responsibility and purpose…that really gets a person going! “Brainwashing” is not the right term I think…you think religious people say to themselves daily, there is a G-d, repeatedly to make themselves believe…some people who are losing faith may do that, sure, but you don’t think there’s any possible way that people feel deep down that it is right and true? Thats like saying love is just brainwashing yourself into staying with one person for the rest of your life, you know that’s not true, you know that feeling is irrevocably apart of someone, and many people feel that love for someone else for their entire life. Nothing can really explain love, yes sure, you fire endorphins and hormones and happy magic chemicals in your body…but thats only bodily response to something incredibly higher than this material world.
As far as never seeing an educated, informed, stable adult “do that”…well, I guess you do sometimes, I am right here! (although you might feel otherwise about me, but I cant really prove much over the internet!)
Mine isnt more true than others, its more true than others for me, but its obviously not true for everyone, thats fine! Uh…and no about horns and cloven hooves…I always think satyrs are pretty cool looking…I wonder if they’re kosher? Goats are…?
Yes, some people are freaking obnoxious, I have met some utterly obnoxious religious people (trust me on this one, oh man…) but I have also met some violently arrogant atheists too…boy, I’ve met some bitter, bitter know it alls. Of both kinds.
I didnt go through all of them because I dont think anyone cares to hear me talk that much! Maybe this is a little better though? Hopefully this is actually a reply in discussion that some of you were hoping for? If those were the claims, hopefully I addressed some of them!
I don’t know everyone. The question is not specific enough. But obviously many do.[/quote]This particular question wasn’t intended to be answered literally - we all know that some people do. I just wanted to discuss it.
Question in bad faith. Not interested in answering.[/quote]
It was not in bad faith, really. I find that accusation offensive and ask that you withdraw it. It was a question about the “true” word of God - which is problematic when translated from one language to the next as words have different meanings.
Question in bad faith. Not interested in answering.[/quote]
No. It’s really not, I promise. I asked a very senior teacher/leader of a mainstream religion about the wider universe and other sentient beings and he said his religion’s “big man” (I don’t want to distract by saying which one) “visited” sentient beings across the universe, as he had on Earth.
???[/quote]Reason can neither prove nor disprove God.
As far as I’m concerned, if you are sincere in learning about what religious people think you will be open and non-judgmental.[/quote]I’m one of the most open minded people I know.
So? [/quote]There are some beliefs which I don’t feel the need to tiptoe around, though like the Christian line of love the sinner, hate the sin, I’m prepared to respect the person while having little respect for that particular belief.
Not a question. [/quote]Did I say it was and demand an answer to those specific lines?
No, it’s not reasonable. The whole point of a transcendent god is that he transcends normal physical reality.[/quote]It was a seemingly silly but actually perfectly reasonable question which now has elicited a meaningful answer - that you believe God transcends physical reality and thus can make miracles happen (transcend the normal laws of physics) and perhaps transcend what humans see as objective logic/reason. It’s like the seemingly silly question of how many angels can dance on a pinhead, that might elicit meaningful discussion.
Question in bad faith. Yes. It is.[/quote]
Again, really, honestly, truly not in bad faith, I’m sorry you see it that way. But you have now said that you believe your religion is objectively more true than others.
Some do. Some don’t. Those who do would not see them as recognizably human stories. Again, if you want people to answer your questions you can’t define the answers beforehand.
Too esoteric for me.[/quote] [/quote]Simple - it’s a binary equation, something or nothing. Or we go down the line of how many angels God can make dance on a pinhead and whether he can transcend logic.
Hard to believe that “all that stuff” is meant to be respectful. [/quote]
Please don’t take it the wrong way, and please believe me when I tell you it wasn’t meant to be disrespectful, though it may have been irreverent - but I don’t think that’s a bad thing, within limits. If you think it was intended to be disrespectful, come out and call me a liar.
Then do so. And listen.
I don’t care if you dismiss religious experience. But if you claim to want answers then shut up and listen to them without judgment.[/quote]I’m all ears, but don’t ask me to suspend critical thinking or not to comment critically or analytically (in the sense of judgement). I suspect you meant something more like ‘moral’ judgement - I’m not sure where saying “don’t judge others for their beliefs” leaves us, since there are beliefs such as racial supremacy that I judge to be both factually incorrect and morally reprehensible.
Please don’t accuse me of asking questions in bad faith. I’m saying now that they weren’t. If they were, that makes me a liar or in denial. And no need to be so defensive. I am interested in listening to what you have to say, but I’m also interested in answering.
You’re doing fine, NNT. Edit: I did welcome you to Forumosa, because I hadn’t seen you here before, but now I see you registered in 2007. Well, welcome to Forumosa anyway! 
If you don’t want me to say you are asking in bad faith then ask proper questions. Your flippancy is seriously annoying. Maybe at some point in your past you met a man who believed god was for bonobos and visited other planets but are you that daft not to see how the question without context would appear to others? No you aren’t that daft which is why the accusation stands. Deal with it.
Next time try something like this: “How does your religion square itself with evolution? Are there any texts that deal with whether earlier human species has souls or whether god has a personal relationship with other intelligent species that may exist on other planets?”
“One of your religion’s core beliefs in that the son of God came to earth, died and ascended to heaven. Obviously I am a little skeptical of this. How does your religion explain supernatural events such as an ascension into Heaven? And where does Heaven stand in relationship to the physical world we know?”
You know. Real questions that might generate real answers.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]"On page 9 of the thread, bob"I think that perhaps it is time to ask “what” religious people think.
Then do so. And listen. [/quote]
I[quote] I don’t care if you dismiss religious experience. But if you claim to want answers then shut up and listen to them without judgment. [/quote]
That is where you go off the rails. Lets be very careful about this. I don’t dismiss the “feelings” that people have when they are having what they call a religious experience. I was pretty clear about that earlier. What I said was that that feeling of communion, that sense of awe at the beauty of things, at the fact of existence etc is absolutly healthy. You can’t seriously imagine that I haven’t had that kind of experience. What I said was that that wonderful and natural thing was linked by association in religion to the notion that anybody KNOWS what god said. That is where it becomes manipulative and that is where you run into serious difficulties.
Telling somebody to shut up and listen is bad enough, but shut up and listen without judgement? You don’t even want me to “think” about it? People make judgements all the time. It is often what thinking is. The judgement that I have come to, and after quite a lot of study and thought, is that religious belief, to the extent that it involves belief in anything supernatural is crazy. It appears crazy. Why wouldn’t I think it was crazy? If there was a more compassionate way to ask that I would use it.
You’ve had your experience with religion, I’ve had mine. They led to different conclusions. My conclusion is antagonistic to yours but it is still an extremely valid conclusion. I would ask that you look into my posts of the last few pages for a better understanding of what those conclusions actually are.
Btw, I still have no idea “what” you believe. Why don’t you tell us? I for one will promise not to engage in any more of what I can admit were pretty rude comments in realation to what you say. I don’t/can’t/won’t promise though not to engage you rationally. You might not want to do this for a number of reasons but at some point the religious community owes it to us. We live with the results of their decsisions. They “owe” us. That is more true of the muslim world obviously.
You’re doing fine, NNT. Edit: I did welcome you to Forumosa, because I hadn’t seen you here before, but now I see you registered in 2007. Well, welcome to Forumosa anyway! [/quote]
Thanks for the welcome…I registered just a day or so ago…that’s weird its telling you 2007!
Okay, your questions were sincere. But now I’ll have to assume that you’ve played football.
One day when I was in the 11th grade (1969), a bunch of my friends decided to skip school to go to the Moratorium Day (i. e., anti-Vietnam-War) rally at LSU (Louisiana State University) the following school day. I didn’t want to p*** off my dad, and my grades were already pretty bad, so I decided I’d better go to school. But I still wanted to participate in the Moratorium. My friends were going to wear black armbands at LSU. I decided maybe it wasn’t a good idea to wear a black armband at Baton Rouge High, so I made up my own armband. I went to the store and bought some crayons, cut a strip from an old sheet, and on the sheet I drew a peace sign with an American flag inside (now I’m not saying I invented that, but I’d never seen it before–later on I saw decals of that emblem). I put a towel over the crayon drawing, and ironed the crayon into the cloth (somewhere back there, I think my mother must have taught me that one).
I wore that armband to school the next day. Just before the start of speech class, this big, big guy, who was a lineman for the Baton Rouge High football team, saw the armband and asked me what it meant. I said that it meant that I loved my country but that I was opposed to the War. The lineman ordered me to take the armband off. I refused. The lineman then said that if I didn’t take it off, he would. I told him that he would have to do that, because I wouldn’t take it off myself.
At that point, the class comedian intervened, and asked me if I was a hippie. I told him I didn’t know, but probably I was sort of a hippie. You know, like, maybe. I guess. Then the lineman began to ask me questions about hippies–you know, about marijuana, LSD, hippie chicks, etc. . Now I was a virgin at the time, but I had smoked a little marijuana and had taken LSD once (Christmas Eve 1968, scared the bejabbers out of me and I never did it again). I probably made some stuff up about hippie chicks. The lineman asked me some more questions. I don’t remember them exactly, but I remember being nervous, because the questions got further and further from my personal experience. In other words, to answer the lineman’s questions, I’m pretty sure I had to lie at least a little bit, maybe a lot.
So given the kinds of questions you’ve asked about religious beliefs, and the fact that as to a good number of them, I’d have to make stuff up in order to answer them, I take it you’ve played football. Not that there’s anything wrong with football. Good exercise, teaches teamwork, discipline, etc.
But I’m not as creative as I was back then, so I don’t think I can answer your questions, at least the specific ones–you know, like the ones about whether Jesus talks to the bonobos. I’d have to make stuff up on that one, and it probably wouldn’t be very believable.
You’re doing fine, NNT. Edit: I did welcome you to Forumosa, because I hadn’t seen you here before, but now I see you registered in 2007. Well, welcome to Forumosa anyway! [/quote]
Thanks for the welcome…I registered just a day or so ago…that’s weird its telling you 2007![/quote]
Whoa, I must have looked at the wrong person’s join date! Now it says 2010, and I’m sure it always said that, I just messed up. Holy cow, maybe I accidentally looked at my own join date! Sorry about that!
No, I get that bit. I just think it is, lets say “poorly thought through.” You can tell when somebody is “thinking things through poorly” when they start talking about “their” reality vs. “your” reality in relation to external events. There aren’t two realities. There is one with two different perspectives on it. Religious texts are filled with stories about god having said this and god having said that. That is an observable reality that can be analyzed. The notion that it is real to some people is like saying that they can believe any old shit they want, which they can, but when they ask other people to believe it they are going to run into trouble. It’s the way it work’s. It’s the way it should work but we have all been hamstrung on the idea that it is somehow rude to discuss religion so directly. It isn’t rude. It is neccesary.[/quote]
Huh? I’m not asking you to believe anything. And of course I’m not saying there are two realities. Surely you understand that to people who believe that reality consists of more than just the merely material, your own view on reality would be seen as somewhat narrow. Of course it would be rather unhelpful to tell you that unless in response to a question like the one I think you asked.
Was it actually a regular question, though, or just a rhetorical one? You keep telling me what the answer should be. Is there anything that you’re actually interested in hearing from me? Because I’m certainly not going to force my opinion down your throat. I’ll probably continue posting on this thread, though, as other people seem to be interested in discussing the OP’s question. I would suggest that you put me on ignore if you feel that I’m forcing my opinions on you - that’s certainly not the intent.
By the way, regarding your experience with a wacky group, sorry to hear that. It does seem to be people who are naive about religion and who don’t really know much about it that fall prey to such groups. And I would think that most people who maturely practice an established religion would see a dream about God telling them they’d go to hell as neither here nor there. Not at all saying you should become religious, but that within a religious context, I don’t think that kind of dream means anything.