Does starting my engine take more gas than letting it run?

Life Cars & Motorcycles
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KHH Enviros Tip of the WEEK!

DOES STARTING MY ENGINE REALLY TAKE MORE GAS THAN LETTING IT RUN?

Ever since I was a boy my father would bravely run out into the depths of the Toronto winter waiting outside in order to “warm up” the car before we were all to pile in on our way to school/work. Having the car sitting in the driveway, running for a while before we drove it was considered healthy for the engine and also for our frozen fingers.

But a question has always rolled around in my head:
“Is it really better to leave your engine running or to simply turn it off?”

A while back I began turning off my engine at stop lights if I knew it would be a long one. A friend of mine had told me “30 seconds or more and it’s better to turn off your engine.” At the time, gas prices were high and I was a student so I thought any way to save money was fine by me. I didn’t think about emissions at the time, though now that I sit in Kaohsiung traffic I can’t help but think about pollution.

But I never found out for myself if he was right or not.
So, we at the KHH Enviros did some checking.

According to the Hinkle Charitable Foundation anti-idling primer, there is a roughly “10 second break even rule” where it would be better to turn off your engine if you’re going to be running the engine and not moving for more than 10 seconds.

  • Because the modern day engine is designed to be driven, not to be standing so this helps save your engine, battery, fuel and pollution -

Just imagine if you’re sitting at the corner of Ming Cheng and Min Zu and every engine around you is turned off. How much better could you be breathing?

This 10 second rule has actually been verified by the American Society of Mechanical Engineers by an experiment done in Florida you can read about here

Now here’s the tricky part: Does this apply to Scooters here in Taiwan?

Well, the short answer to this is we can’t know for sure simply because the research hasn’t been done (or made available in English if it has been done).

Two things matter here: 1) Nearly all of the research has been done on car engines, not scooter engines
2) Most scooters here owned by foreigners are older scooters and may not be
subject to the wonders of modern engineering that makes idling bad for
your car or scooter

However, there is no denying that stopping your engine saves on emissions. You’re doing yourself and everyone around you a favor when you stop your car.

Also, we asked one local Kaohsiung mechanic his opinion. He said that any scooter in decent condition (i.e. you don’t need to give it gas to start it), would most certainly be better to turn your engine off rather than waiting 20 seconds or more.

When it comes down to it, you’ve been around engines all your life, as I have. The quick, easy start up of a scooter takes less than 2 seconds. Does it really make sense that it would take more energy than sitting there having black stuff coming out the back of your scooter?

So do yourself and everyone else a favor. Turn off your engines if you’re waiting at a long stop light.
And make sure others see you do it. Good, sensible behavior catches on fast.

Drive safely
–KHH Enviros

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[quote]
So do yourself and everyone else a favor. Turn off your engines if you’re waiting at a long stop light.
And make sure others see you do it. Good, sensible behavior catches on fast.[/quote]

:roflmao:

3

Interesting topic. I couldn’t find a website link in what you posted so here is the one from the ASME Website:
ASME test on Idling Cars

There are some things to look out for though. While they did find on a V6 it saves gas (and therefore carbon emissions) to not idle the car if you’ll be stopped for more than 5 seconds, you should read the rest of their findings too.

[quote]Our research showed a V6 restart takes about the same fuel as 5 seconds of idling.
We expect a V8 to save even more and a 4 cylinder less.[/quote]

Aren’t most motorcycles here 2 or 4 stroke? I would imagine the older ones would be better turned off (especially the ones that leave a blue cloud of smoke as they take off), but the newer ones have better exhausts on them already, right?

[quote]
Your vehicle was probably not designed for such frequent restarts, about 10 times or more
than what was anticipated by the manufacturer. If you save $0.25 per day in gas but have to
replace the car battery or starter, you could likely wipe out a major portion of your savings
with the cost of a major repair.[/quote]

Prematurely killing your battery to save on carbon emissions seems rather pointless. You prevent CO2 from going to the atmosphere but you have to buy a new battery, with all the nasty stuff in it (plus the emissions required to make a new battery).

Just some of my thoughts. I admit very little knowledge about motorcycles, only autos, so I may be completely wrong about the applicability towards motorcycles.

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Or you could get a car designed for the purpose.

Like the strangely named Smart hybrid:

Sep 11th 2007

autobloggreen.com/2007/09/11 … -launches/

“The start-stop system will initially only be available with the 71hp gasoline engine and the automated manual transmission. When the vehicle comes to a stop the engine switches off and the clutch disengages. When the driver releases the brake, the engine automatically starts back up. The micro hybrid system is claimed to provide a fuel efficiency improvement eight percent from 50 to almost 55 mpg. Carbon dioxide emissions drop from 112 to 103g/km. The Smart ForTwo micro-hybrid goes on sale in October in Europe and the press release is after the jump.”

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[quote=“Dogma”]Like the strangely named Smart hybrid:
[/quote]

Well, that’s to distinguish it from the Somewhat Intelligent Hybrid and the Intellectually Challenged Hybrid.

6

Heard something on the radio last week about a new law for vehicles idling for more than 3 minutes, they will need to be switched off. And apparently have some kind of auto shut off timer… hmmm…

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[quote=“KHH Enviros”]The quick, easy start up of a scooter takes less than 2 seconds. Does it really make sense that it would take more energy than sitting there having black stuff coming out the back of your scooter?

So do yourself and everyone else a favor. Turn off your engines if you’re waiting at a long stop light.
And make sure others see you do it. Good, sensible behavior catches on fast.[/quote]Well, I think you’d be failed immediately on a UK motorbike test if you turned the engine off at a stoplight. Safety reasons. You need to be able to move immediately. If these new vehicles do it instantly and automatically, fair enough. But I’m not sure it’s a good idea on your average scooter.

As for black smoke coming out of the back of your scooter? There are things you can do about that.

8

FYI, Joe, the OP rides a Fuzzy, and it doesn’t smoke. He asked me what I thought about this when we talked on the phone recently, and I told him it’s a myth to think that you save fuel by keeping the engine running. I see that he did his homework on the subject.

There isn’t much of a difference between a scooter or a car in that regard, IMO. An internal combustion engine is what it is. It burns fuel when it’s running, no matter how big the engine is, but it doesn’t when it’s not running.

I agree that in some circumstances, it would be safer to keep the engine running, but I can’t see a need for it at a big majority of red lights, especially when you’re boxed in among 40 other scooters. Even if you wanted to pull away, you couldn’t. Would be fancy if everyone just shut their engines off, wouldn’t it?

I have a kill switch installed next to my speedometer. It’s not an anti-theft kill switch-it’s in plain sight. It’s a red light switch. I use it all the time. It doesn’t drain the battery whatsoever to re-start unless your vehicle doesn’t start easily.

marboulette

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[quote=“marboulette”]FYI, Joe, the OP rides a Fuzzy, and it doesn’t smoke.[/quote]I was curious because he said something about black smoke coming out of the back.

I feel much safer when I can pull away instantly, not after three seconds. And I often don’t get boxed in. But an instant-on engine like the ones mentioned would be cool.

Apparently in the UK they’re keen on this idea too now:
news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx … r-else.htm
Still, traffic’s a lot more civilised there so I’d feel safer doing it there.

10

A Toronto winter, although never having experienced one I imagine is quite harsh given its Northernness. :sunglasses:

In low temperature extremes the oil within the engine block of a car can be extremely viscous and may fail to provide sufficient lubrication to the top of the engine and turbo (if fitted), especially considering the condition of contracted tolerances between engine components at low temperatures . If your old man was used to driving at a reasonably high mid to high rev range, then indeed getting up a few minutes earlier to warm the engine up first at a low rev range would have saved him precious wear and tear.

After reading numerous reports on the stopping or starting of internal combustion engines for reasons of economy, pollution and wear and tear to the engine it does seem to make sense that given today’s motor vehicles and their modern design and build quality, that it should not be necessary to warm them up purely for the sake of their engines in moderate atmospheric conditions. It is also not necessary to keep engines running at traffic lights given over a few seconds of waiting.

I have heard many people state that turning an engine off and on repetitively at lights much cause additional wear to starter motor and flywheel components and this may be true to a certain extent. From my own experiment with my scooter, stopping the engine every time at traffic lights did not cause accelerated wear of any noticeable consequence. The scooter after six years is still starting and running well and has not received any attention to its starter circuit.
All in all I believe the cost of earlier replacement of starter components may be simply offset by cost savings in fuel and the wear to internal engine components that would otherwise take place during engine running during the time the vehicle is stopped at the lights. It has been noted, and I haven’t seen specific statistics on Taipei, that vehicles can spend twenty percent of their engine running time in a stationary mode within city limits. That’s an awful lot of fuel and an awful lot of engine wear.

My advice is turn off your engine within a reasonable outside temperature range.

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[quote=“Dogma”]Or you could get a car designed for the purpose.

Like the strangely named Smart hybrid:

Sep 11th 2007

autobloggreen.com/2007/09/11 … -launches/

“The start-stop system will initially only be available with the 71hp gasoline engine and the automated manual transmission. When the vehicle comes to a stop the engine switches off and the clutch disengages. When the driver releases the brake, the engine automatically starts back up. The micro hybrid system is claimed to provide a fuel efficiency improvement eight percent from 50 to almost 55 mpg. Carbon dioxide emissions drop from 112 to 103g/km. The Smart ForTwo micro-hybrid goes on sale in October in Europe and the press release is after the jump.”[/quote]

Bit puzzled. My impression was, that with a hybrid, the engine generates electricity to charge the battery, so it should be operating at the optimum speed for that, even if the vehicle is not moving, and therefore “idling at a stop light” isn’t usually wasted energy. This would imply that start-stop operation is less necessary/useful with a hybrid.

Still, if the sums show its worth it, then I guess it must be. This seems to imply it would be even more useful with a non-hybrid setup.

BTW I had a Lada (er, definately non-hybrid) that for ages would cut out at lights (probably on overrun, but I only remember it happening at lights). I thought this was A GOOD THING so I didn’t bother investigating, but then it started doing it on corners as well and I had to fix it. (new silicone ignition leads). Pity, that petrol is gone for ever now.

12

The start and stop system is getting more and more common on small cars in Europe. Nearly all manufacturers there have a model equipped already out on the market or in the pipeline. And seeing that the EU is about to pass new stringent emission directives for ALL makers, this is only gonna get more common.
For your information, the system has some sort of a ‘super-alternator’ that not only start the engine, but pushes the car in its first couple of seconds to give you an immediate start. I understand it was quite a feat to design it while staying under a 12v system.

13

Old cars took a lot of electricity and gas to start up. But these new fangled jap-crap engins are easy to go and we don’t have to worry about the extreme frigidity of the higher latitudes here. What ever happened to hand-cranks on cars anyways? They were good on a bad day.

14

My Mk1 Lada had a hand crank, probably the last vehicle marketed (in the UK anyway) with one. Only used it for real once because it also had a huge start-in-Siberia battery, but it was reassuring backup, and useful for turning the engine while adjusting valve clearances.

They took it out in the Mk2, probably because dick-heads laughed at it. Completely pointless, the lugs were still on the end of the crankshaft but you couldn’t get to them because there was no hole. Other Western-style “improvements” were replacing the timing chain with an F-ing RUBBER BAND, removing the vernier on the distributor, making the rear brakes automatically non-adjustable (almost as bad as my Renault), and many extra rust - traps (No doubt inspired by Italian design). In the end it was almost as crap as a Western car, but heavier.

15

[quote=“Belgian Pie”][quote]
So do yourself and everyone else a favor. Turn off your engines if you’re waiting at a long stop light.
And make sure others see you do it. Good, sensible behavior catches on fast.[/quote]

:roflmao:[/quote]

Started doing this. Gives a great feeling of superiority, plus you get a lot of “weird ygolen” stares, which is always satisfying. I’d be surprised if I start any trends though.

Of course its most easily practiced at “count down” lights, so its to be hoped more of those will be retro-fitted if turning-off is official policy.

On a motorcycle you can kill the engine before the lights and coast up, ready for a rolling-start if they change, which saves some starter wear. Doesn’t work on a scooter because transmission drag pulls unburned fuel through the engine, which will be more polluting than leaving it running.

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[quote=“Ducked”]
Bit puzzled. My impression was, that with a hybrid, the engine generates electricity to charge the battery, so it should be operating at the optimum speed for that, even if the vehicle is not moving, and therefore “idling at a stop light” isn’t usually wasted energy. [/quote]

Er, it’s not that kinda Hybrid, that’s why I said it’s strangely named, these bright fellows call it a Hybrid because it automatically turns off and restarts the engine.

Given that, I would take Lemurs lead

[quote=“lemur”]
Well, that’s to distinguish it from the Somewhat Intelligent Hybrid and the Intellectually Challenged Hybrid.[/quote]

And recommend it be re badged the “Intellectually challenged not very Hybrid”