A century after, to date.
You are correct of course . Still we should respect democratic votes now more than anything.
I am struggling to understand your point here.
Guy
The question is, what is the unit? When Quebec had a referendum on separation in 1995 the separatists barely lost, 50.56% to 49.68%. Anglophones and allophones (other languages) made the difference, with some French-Canadians arguing that newcomers should not be allowed to vote . Of the 77% of the Cree nation who voted, 96% voted to to remain in Canada, the Inuit voted 96% against Quebec independence, and both threatened to leave Quebec, taking a huge chunk of the province (the land they collectively held) with them.
Precisely. The root cause of the failed referendum was âlâargent et des votes ethniquesâ (Jacques Parizeau, 1995). I was and am, albeit a non-stakeholder in the results, very supportive of arguments for Quebec sovereignty. This stance is based on cultural and linguistic grounds. The pro-independence voices in Taiwan may have similar talking points, but lack the luxury of bordering the US.
Probably not
Hmmm. Quebec was part of the deal of confederation from the get-go. Iâm not really seeing how this case has much to do with Taiwan, which has neither been part of the ROC at its inception nor part of the PRC at its inceptionâit was simply occupied and brutalized by the former, and is baselessly claimed and tirelessly harassed by the latter.
Iâm not seeing the parallel here. 
Guy
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The Three Principles of the People are good and need to be repurposed for Taiwan.
The claim is that the PRC is the successor state to the ROC, which is the successor state to the Chinese Empire, which claimed Taiwan belonged to it but had been forcefully ripped away a la Alsace-Lorraine.
The argument of the separatists was that Quebec had been bundled into Canada by conquest, and that the people living now had the right to self-determination, no matter what their ancestors had chosen (which, they argued, was not a free choice anyway)
Which undercuts Brianjones argument
Crimea? South Ossetia?
Does Scotland have the right to remain in the EU, after the rest of the island of Great Britain voted to leave? Itâs one island, after all.
Simple answer: no
Long answer: no
Theyâll have to officially change it sooner or later.
Different nations though,that one is very clear cut.
Sounds like you know what they are, and what they mean. Several Taiwanese, including a university departmental head, I spoke to recently had no idea, although they must have sung the âSan Min Zhu Yiâ at school.
Thatâs terrible. Wonder what the curriculum in Taiwan is.
My cousin said theyâve gotten rid of Chinese calligraphy too.
The ROC at inception never imagined that Taiwan was part of it.
In any case, the Treaty of Shimonoseki (1895) made it clear that giving up claims to Taiwan and the Pescadores was not a temporary matter but was made âin perpetuity.â
Put otherwise: bullsh&t claims involving Taiwan need to stop being discussed as actual legitimate claims.
Guy
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[quote=âOysterOmelet, post:73, topic:205495, full:trueâ]
School curriculum? A can of worms. Theyâre pushing bilingualism and kids are learning all this garbage English from illiterate textbooks. In my view, theyâd be better off with calligraphy. My (non-mainlander Taiwanese) wife learned calligraphy at school and reckoned it was the best thing she did there.
More seriously, will the philosophical legacy of Sun Yat-Sen live on in Taiwan? It seems to be dying a death. Yet that legacy is important in my opinion. Yes, the Three Principles need to be re-visited and perhaps re-purposed for Taiwan. Itâs either that or become more like S.Korea/Japan. But at their core, most Taiwanese are really Chinese. Arenât they?
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Iâm sure that was entirely voluntary and no force was involved.
That was the one time when Taiwan declared independence. Pro-independence advocates then and now argue that Chinaâs willingness to trade Taiwan away to buy time was a disgrace and that China can no longer rightfully claim Taiwan as a province for this reason alone. It was the beginning of Taiwanese consciousness.
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The ROC has a future in so far as itâll remain the legal framework on which Taiwan exists for as long as the CCP is in power.
Itâs funny really that thereâs a lot of arguing about independence vs reunification when neither is actually going to happen, given the reality of the situation. Annexation is certainly possible.
But equally, were the CCP to somehow be gone and China to become a much friendlier neighbour, itâs hard to say how Taiwan would then feel about the prospect. So much has to change for that to happen that we canât possibly predict how people here would react. So in such a hypothetical scenario, I wouldnât say independence is as clear cut as many would argue.
For now the ROC limps on, even when the current government doesnât believe in it.
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Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the violence that the Qing authorities used to try to annex Taiwan?
Competing empires have always been part of Taiwanâs modern history. I struggle to understand why you think 1895 gets a pass.
Guy
You mean taking it from a Chinese/Japanese pirate in 1683, who had taken it from the Dutch in 1662?
1895 doesnât get a pass. The island was returned to the ROC in 1945; the ROC sat in the Chinese chair at the UN until 1971.
âthe determination of the future status of Formosa must await the restoration of security in the Pacific, a peace settlement with Japan, or consideration by the United Nations.â[9] President Truman later reaffirmed the position "that all questions affecting Formosa be settled by peaceful means as envisaged in the Charter of the United Nations
According to the UN, it belongs to the PRC. Now, I donât particularly care what the UN thinks about the issue; I lean towards the âpopular sovereigntyâ argument.