Does the ROC have a future?

[BiggusDickus]

@Critter

@BiggusDickus

@Critter

@Marco

@Critter

If the ROC were so worthless it would have already been replaced.
[/quote]

It’s pretty hard to replace things when you’re being prevented by a gun in one’s face.

There is an underlying assumption in what you say, i.e. that everyone in Taiwan wants to ditch the ROC. I think Taiwanese people’s feelings, like mine, are a bit more nuanced than that. There is a significant and relatively powerful minority here that still support the ROC and the principles it stood for. In this regard, Taiwan is a little like Northern Ireland, which has its own minority “loyalist” group ( that are in a minority in Ireland as a whole.)

Unionists are a minority in Northern Ireland? Where did you get that idea from?

They are consistently higher in elections, albeit not by a great deal.

They are a minority in Ireland as a whole, and the border was colonial gerrymandering–that’s the Irish nationalist point of view, not mine.

Russians are a minority in the Ukraine, while Ukrainians are a minority in Russia as a whole. That’s the Russian nationalist point of view, not mine.

[afterspivak]

@Critter

Taiwan post '49 offered an alternative political model, “Free China.”

As noted in the novel Green Island (I think you will understand the significance of this book title), it was neither “free” nor “China.”

Guy

[Critter]

@afterspivak

@Critter

Taiwan post '49 offered an alternative political model, “Free China.”

As noted in the novel Green Island (I think you will understand the significance of this book title), it was neither “free” nor “China.”

Guy

Sure, that’s why I put the phrase in inverted commas.

[afterspivak]

So the “alternative political model” was another set of lies?

Guy

[Critter]

@BiggusDickus

@Critter

@BiggusDickus

@Critter

@Marco

[quote=“Critter, post:24, topic:205495”]

If the ROC were so worthless it would have already been replaced.

[/quote]

It’s pretty hard to replace things when you’re being prevented by a gun in one’s face.
[/quote]

There is an underlying assumption in what you say, i.e. that everyone in Taiwan wants to ditch the ROC. I think Taiwanese people’s feelings, like mine, are a bit more nuanced than that. There is a significant and relatively powerful minority here that still support the ROC and the principles it stood for. In this regard, Taiwan is a little like Northern Ireland, which has its own minority “loyalist” group ( that are in a minority in Ireland as a whole.)
[/quote]

Unionists are a minority in Northern Ireland? Where did you get that idea from?

They are consistently higher in elections, albeit not by a great deal.

They are a minority in Ireland as a whole, and the border was colonial gerrymandering–that’s the Irish nationalist point of view, not mine.

Russians are a minority in the Ukraine, while Ukrainians are a minority in Russia as a whole. That’s the Russian nationalist point of view, not mine.

Erm, some similarities, yes. Your point, presumably, is that Russia doesn’t have a case. Okay. Well, Ireland was divided by a colonial authority in 1922. The six provinces can’t really be compared to Ukraine, although a Unionist would say otherwise. The point of my comparison is that ROC diehards here are influential out of proportion to their numbers in the population of Taiwan as a whole. Importantly, they do not wish to join with China under communist authority, whereas Russian rebels in Ukraine do want to join Russia under its present authority.

[Belgian_Pie]

@Critter

There is a significant and relatively powerful minority here that still support the ROC and the principles it stood for.

The ones that profited from it.

[afterspivak]

Education was a big deal too.

The generational gap on this issue is immense.

Guy

[Critter]

@Belgian_Pie

@Critter

There is a significant and relatively powerful minority here that still support the ROC and the principles it stood for.

The ones that profited from it.

No. Not just profit. That is a simplification. A lot of mainlanders were principled, well-educated and had fought hard against communism. Many of them were and are principled. ROC policies benefitted many, and in some cases everyone–public infrastructure, education, land reform etc. Don’t conflate the ROC as a whole with the racketeers in the KMT, or thugs in the military dictatorship.

[BiggusDickus]

@Critter

Russians are a minority in the Ukraine, while Ukrainians are a minority in Russia as a whole. That’s the Russian nationalist point of view, not mine.

Erm, some similarities, yes. Your point, presumably, is that Russia doesn’t have a case. Okay. Well, Ireland was divided by a colonial authority in 1922. The six provinces can’t really be compared to Ukraine, although a Unionist would say otherwise. The point of my comparison is that ROC diehards here are influential out of proportion to their numbers in the population of Taiwan as a whole. Importantly, they do not wish to join with China under communist authority, whereas Russian rebels in Ukraine do want to join Russia under its present authority.
[/quote]
Unionists are the majority in Northern Ireland. Their influence is not out of proportion with their numbers there. The majority of Taiwanese do not want to join, politically, greater China. Some do, though. Usually they are outside 101.

Every country has “a case”, with varying degrees of validity. Russia has a case, just as the Republic of Ireland does.

EDIT: I’m replying to @Marco . Apologies for any confusion.

[Brianjones]

@Marco

But they are unequivocally part of the UK until they choose to leave by a referendum decided by a majority of people.

Only because they were hived off in the first place by a war prosecuted on Irish people. All of Ireland is obviously Ireland. It’s hard to get away from on the Island of Ireland. There can’t be much debate on that I guess most of you don’t know that Ireland had multiple home rule votes that were ignored over decades then they had a WHOLE ISLAND VOTE (basically on the topic of independence) which was resoundingly backed by the majority on the island and they set up the first independent parliament in Dublin in 1918. The British government refused to recognise it and then they had war. The British govt agreed to a free state in return for allowing Northern Ireland to be hived off AGAINST the wishes of the majority of Irish people.

1918 Irish general election

ANYWAY I don’t think the situation is similar at all because of course people now will have a vote one way or the other on the island of Ireland but in Taiwan even if people voted to be officially an independent country called Taiwan it would be destroyed rather then let peacefully exist.

[Critter]

@BiggusDickus

Unionists are the majority in Northern Ireland. Their influence is not out of proportion with their numbers there.

Well you know the troubles in Northern Ireland started in the late sixties because Unionists did have influence out of proportion to their numbers–the RUC, for example, was wholly protestant. I just mention this in passing.

[BiggusDickus]

@Brianjones

ANYWAY I don’t think the situation is similar at all because of course people now will have a vote one way or the other on the island of Ireland but in Taiwan even if people voted to be officially an independent country called Taiwan it would be destroyed rather then let peacefully exist.

It’s distinctly different in that it is a vote including the entire population of Ireland, as opposed to a vote including only the population of Taiwan. The CCP would prefer a vote including the population of Taiwan plus China.

[Brianjones]

I"m thinking back to 1918 and what the British did back then wasnt that different. They refused to recognise the democratic mandate of the citizens.
But now…it’s very different, yes.

[BiggusDickus]

@Brianjones

I"m thinking back to 1918 and what the British did back then wasnt that different.
But now…it’s very different, yes.

1916? Anyway, I thought memories went way further back than that.

[Brianjones]

Just that specific circumstance of the empire power ignoring a democratic mandate from the 1918 elections.
Rather than agreeing with the majority of Irish they supported the Unionist side up North that wanted to maintain closer links by splitting the country. A bit like hiving off Taoyuan county and Taipei and calling it a country in my book while also damaging it economically. Ironically the Unionists had a strong voting block back then they could have had a huge influence in a united Ireland. Instead they created the apartheid state. Lack of vision.

Anyway…the situation is kind of opposite of China and Taiwan where China wants to take over in fit of empire building and willing to go to a regional/world war potentially over it.

[BiggusDickus]

@Brianjones

Just that specific circumstance of the empire power ignoring a democratic mandate.
Rather than agreeing with the majority of Irish they supported the Unionist side up North that wanted to maintain closer links by splitting the country. Ironically the Unionists had a strong voting block back then they could have had a huge influence in a united Ireland. Instead they created the apartheid state. Lack of vision.

Anyway…the situation is kind of opposite of China and Taiwan where China wants to take over in fit of empire building and willing to go to a regional/world war potentially over it.

The democratic mandate in Northern Ireland would need to be ignored for a united Ireland.

[Brianjones]

It’s funny how that suddenly became important AFTER gerrrymandering and gun pointing in 1921.

[Critter]

@BiggusDickus

@Critter

Russians are a minority in the Ukraine, while Ukrainians are a minority in Russia as a whole. That’s the Russian nationalist point of view, not mine.

Erm, some similarities, yes. Your point, presumably, is that Russia doesn’t have a case. Okay. Well, Ireland was divided by a colonial authority in 1922. The six provinces can’t really be compared to Ukraine, although a Unionist would say otherwise. The point of my comparison is that ROC diehards here are influential out of proportion to their numbers in the population of Taiwan as a whole. Importantly, they do not wish to join with China under communist authority, whereas Russian rebels in Ukraine do want to join Russia under its present authority.

Unionists are the majority in Northern Ireland. Their influence is not out of proportion with their numbers there. The majority of Taiwanese do not want to join, politically, greater China. Some do, though. Usually they are outside 101.

Every country has “a case”, with varying degrees of validity. Russia has a case, just as the Republic of Ireland does.
[/quote]

I see.

[afterspivak]

@BiggusDickus

The CCP would prefer a vote including the population of Taiwan plus China.

Guy

[DesiInTaipei]

Thoughts of people are shaped by where you grew up, the current state of affairs. A lot of Taiwanese today want to feel independent, because their generation has experienced that. I don’t blame the older generation who wants things as they are because it reaped benefits for them.

India ignores the wishes of people in Kashmir saying the people there stole land away from the original inhabitants in the first place. ( which is true). So definitely kashmir is not going to be independent anytime soon. People just hope the situation will resolve itself. But it’s possible that if Pakistan continues to push terrorists, there will be a full fledged war there.

I feel the same about Taiwan. Taiwanese today may think they own the land. But fact is they have stolen it from others. Simply growing up here ignores the historical rights others had on that land. So, if China goes back 5000 years what is wrong?