[quote=“Mr He”][quote=“hsinhai78”]The similarity in how nationality is applied in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau should be sufficient evidence to understand that there will never be the changes many hope to see. That is unless Beijing reforms their interpretation of nationality law in HK or amends Chinese nationality law altogether. I do not see the Legislative Yuan alter ROC Nationality law in a way that it becomes incompatible with PRC Nationality law. Aside from the constitution, this law is of importance to the One China concept.
I see more chances in Western countries that do accept multiple nationality: why not change Canadian or US or Australian law in a way that any citizen who has given up his nationality to conform with the naturalisation procedure of a foreign country shall be able to unconditionally apply for ex tunc reinstatement. The Philippine government already has such a law in place.[/quote]
What similarity?
If you are a PRC citizen and you get citizenship from another country, you lose your PRC citizenship. They are very strict about this. If you are a ROC citizen, you do not lose ROC citizenship if you get for instance US citizenship.
That is not very similar.
Also, the ROC has a route to naturalization for people who are not descendants of the yellow emperor. I would not know about China or Hong Kong.
I personally know 4 people, 3 of them posters/former posters here who are naturalized ROC citizens, all 4 are western, wit 2 being former Americans, 1 former Australian, and on former brit.
On to your assertion that the Taiwanese would have an issue with foreigners becoming ROC citizens, then no, that’s not my impression. When I tell locals that I have lived here 19 years, the most common reaction is that “You must have got your citizenship by now, right?”
They never sem angry. When I tell them that’s I do not have it because I do not want to surrender my original citizenship, they act confused, as they can hae dual citizenship, but I can’t.
Most Taiwanese would be sympatetic, but not extremely interested. No real racial connection in their minds regarding ROC citizenship and children of the Yellow emperor.[/quote]
And I remember one of NZ, he got an exception to the rule as NZ’landers can not cancel their nationality I was told.
If there are other people on this board who are interested in putting some time / effort into helping this, then let’s do it.
I’ve started the website, but it certainly needs major work, content, ideas, and support from locals. We need to strategize, figure out a game plan for what specific actions we can take other than talking about it on a web forum, and then actually go out and do it. We can even start a legitimate non-profit foundation and start asking for donations. Anyone else want to help out? Send me a PM with your contact info or leave a note here and I’ll PM you mine. Let’s get a group together and start planning… I, for one, do not believe this is an impossible task - our biggest barrier is simply awareness.
[quote=“Mr He”][quote=“hsinhai78”]The similarity in how nationality is applied in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau should be sufficient evidence to understand that there will never be the changes many hope to see. That is unless Beijing reforms their interpretation of nationality law in HK or amends Chinese nationality law altogether. I do not see the Legislative Yuan alter ROC Nationality law in a way that it becomes incompatible with PRC Nationality law. Aside from the constitution, this law is of importance to the One China concept.
I see more chances in Western countries that do accept multiple nationality: why not change Canadian or US or Australian law in a way that any citizen who has given up his nationality to conform with the naturalisation procedure of a foreign country shall be able to unconditionally apply for ex tunc reinstatement. The Philippine government already has such a law in place.[/quote]
What similarity?
If you are a PRC citizen and you get citizenship from another country, you lose your PRC citizenship. They are very strict about this. If you are a ROC citizen, you do not lose ROC citizenship if you get for instance US citizenship.
That is not very similar. [/quote]
Read again: I said there is a similarity between the application of PRC nationality law in HK and ROC nationality law.
Naturalization in HK is very much possible and resembles the process in Taiwan. Read my post again carefully. You should know that the nationality law in HK is not different from Mainland China but the Immigration Department uses a different interpretation of dual nationality. That leads to foreign applicants in HK being required to give up their original nationality vs. HK people being able to just have multiple nationalities. Hence my statement that it’s just like Taiwan and Beijing has a lot of influence.
Again, the Chinese are much more restrictive than either Taiwan or Hong Kong. That is a huge difference. Article 9 of the China nationality law states directly that if you acquire a second nationality and you are a Chinese citizen, you automatically lose your Chinese citizenship. I would not call that similar to the laws of the ROC at all.
Also, I do not think that China’s influence on Taiwan extends to the nationality laws here. Actually, I know of at least one white ROC citizen entering China on a Taibaozheng. He was questioned only once, where the immigration officer told him that he was foreign but chose to wawe him through when he started to ask said officer if that meant that Taiwan was not part of China(A superviser might have intervened before said immigration officer made a complete fool of himself). Normally no problem, and he goes to China often.
You still don’t get it. Nowhere did I write that ROC Nationality law is similar to the application of PRC Nationality law in Mainland China. I wrote that ROC Nationality law is similar to the application of PRC Nationality law in Hong Kong and Macau. That is a very important distinction. You can refer to the website of the HKSAR government if you still do not understand this. http://www.gov.hk/en/residents/immigration/chinese/law.htm#nat
That is your personal opinion. There is definitely no direct influence like in Hong Kong’s case. It is noteworthy however that Taiwan is avoiding any step to have a more liberal nationality law than the way PRC Nationality law is applied in Hong Kong or Macau.
This hearsay episode even has the complication that it involves a non-ethnic Chinese ROC citizen. Not something that is likely to be in the training of C I I-officers. The thousands of ethnic-Chinese Taibaozheng holders who line up every day in the Chinese Citizens line do not seem to face any problems.
The issuance requirements for a Taibaozheng are 1) Chinese nationality 2) Household registration in Taiwan.
Taiwanese are also eligible to apply for the Lüxingzheng, which even states “The holder of this permit is a citizen of the People’s Republic of China”.
That episode is not hearsay, it came from a close friend.
With regard to the HK and Macau application of the Chinese laws, you are talking about something completely different from Taiwan.
First of all, in Hong Kong they only made those excemptions due to the fact that a fair amount of HK Chinese were UK overseas citizens, or had other additional citizenships, and they basically said that they are not allowed to avail themselves of their other citizenship the day the red thugs send in the tanks to sort HK out.
Any half-assed reading of your link implies that those special regulations were made only in order to deal with the selling out of Hong Kong to china, note that they only - repeat - only refer to British passport holders. They talk of Right of Abode for other places than the UK, however right of abode is NOT citizenship.
Secondly, they confused citizenship with race, something which is not as much of an issue here in Taiwan - I find that racist, however again you are talking China here - no Indian tailors are to get a sacred chinese passport.
What ROC citizens do get in china at least it shows that china recognizes ROC citizenship as something kind of PRC citizenship and that they allow non-han to avail themselves of this. My ROC citizen friend visits china on business often.
So, no, the actual application is NOT the same, as the HK regulations only exist in order to deal with the post-handover business, not as an ongoing policy, unlike here in Taiwan.
You are wrong, as usual, and again, when discussing nationality law here in Taiwan, they do not refer back to China.
One close friend? What a great sample size to draw conclusions on the way the PRC government deals with white ROC citizens using a Taibaozheng to enter Mainland China.
[quote=“Mr He”] With regard to the HK and Macau application of the Chinese laws, you are talking about something completely different from Taiwan.
First of all, in Hong Kong they only made those excemptions due to the fact that a fair amount of HK Chinese were UK overseas citizens, or had other additional citizenships, and they basically said that they are not allowed to avail themselves of their other citizenship the day the red thugs send in the tanks to sort HK out. [/quote]
The reality is that no country whose national you are will allow you consular protection from whatever other country you may hold a passport.
Again, you did not read everything.
"Unless you have renounced your Chinese nationality, you are a Chinese national in the HKSAR. If you choose to be treated as a foreign national in the HKSAR, you may with valid documents in support, make a declaration of change of nationality to the HKSAR Immigration Department. " Source: http://www.gov.hk/en/residents/immigration/chinese/faqnationality.htm#/q1
Indian tailors who have resided in Hong Kong at the time of handover do not get Chinese citizenship by descent - what is wrong with that? They still got to keep either their Indian passport or British passport as well as HK permanent resident status. If they wish to naturalise that is possible in Hong Kong and due to long-term residence inside HK, many of these Indian tailors qualified from the very first day Chinese sovereignty over HK resumed. Many have done so and some have chosen not to, as they valued their Indian or British passport more than being naturalised in Hong Kong. http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1106498/figures-reveal-thousands-ethnic-minorities-have-won-naturalisation
Besides, why should the PRC hand out citizenship to people who reside in HK due a colonial injustice?
This contradicts your statement about white ROC citizens having trouble at immigration.
Motive or duration is irrelevant to application. What does it matter to a HKSAR passport holder who just received US citizenship that the motive for him being able to have dual PRC/US nationality is dealing with a colonial past? Likewise, Whitey McWhite who just naturalised in Taiwan couldn’t care less about the original motive for allowing naturalisation in the ROC being Vietnamese mail order brides.
Unlike you I can back my line of argument with links to official government resources;
One close friend? What a great sample size to draw conclusions on the way the PRC government deals with white ROC citizens using a Taibaozheng to enter Mainland China. [/quote]
I said personally that I knew 4 caucasians with ROC citizenship - after asking the friend mentioned above, it would appear that there is about 10-15 in total. That means that he would be 7-10% of the total, so it would be significant. What matters is however that prc recognize of sorts anything Taiwan does regarding citizenship, IE flatly against what you are vainly trying to claim.
[quote=“hsinhai78”] [quote=“Mr He”] With regard to the HK and Macau application of the Chinese laws, you are talking about something completely different from Taiwan.
First of all, in Hong Kong they only made those excemptions due to the fact that a fair amount of HK Chinese were UK overseas citizens, or had other additional citizenships, and they basically said that they are not allowed to avail themselves of their other citizenship the day the red thugs send in the tanks to sort HK out. [/quote]
The reality is that no country whose national you are will allow you consular protection from whatever other country you may hold a passport. [/quote]
You are obfuscating. What we are discussing is if china matters one jot when it comes to how the ROC put their nationality laws together. The answer would appear to be a resounding no.
Again, you did not read everything.
"Unless you have renounced your Chinese nationality, you are a Chinese national in the HKSAR. If you choose to be treated as a foreign national in the HKSAR, you may with valid documents in support, make a declaration of change of nationality to the HKSAR Immigration Department. " Source: http://www.gov.hk/en/residents/immigration/chinese/faqnationality.htm#/q1[/quote]
This mean that HK citizens can renounce under certain conditions, so can citizens of a lot of other countries, be in China, UK, USA, Australia, etc etc etc. What does it matter when it comes to your strawman?
You are telling us that China allows renounciation, that’s empty of meaning when it comes to the issue at hand, which is that you think that non-descendants of the yellow emperor should renounce when getting ROC citizenship, and that china is behind this.
Indian tailors who have resided in Hong Kong at the time of handover do not get Chinese citizenship by descent - what is wrong with that? They still got to keep either their Indian passport or British passport as well as HK permanent resident status. If they wish to naturalise that is possible in Hong Kong and due to long-term residence inside HK, many of these Indian tailors qualified from the very first day Chinese sovereignty over HK resumed. Many have done so and some have chosen not to, as they valued their Indian or British passport more than being naturalised in Hong Kong. http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1106498/figures-reveal-thousands-ethnic-minorities-have-won-naturalisation
Besides, why should the PRC hand out citizenship to people who reside in HK due a colonial injustice? [/quote]
The indians in Hong Kong immigrated freely, and they are welcome to leave - what colonial injustice are you talking about? Earlier Hong Kong was a free society founded by the British and with a lot of chinese immigrants pouring into it. Then it became a colony of a communist thuggish dictatorship and it has seen its freedom and liberty curtailed - Occupy central anyone?
Hong Kong was a beacon of freedom in the chinese world, and it’s sad to see it slowly being turned into another repressive han state. The Hong Kongers I have known voiced similar sentiments.
Moreover, the facts on the ground is that the Indians in Hong Kong have run into major difficulties when it comes to getting chinese citizenship. From 1997 to 2002, it seems to have been standard racist practice to refuse to even given them application forms - the Indians applying would in some case have longer family histories in Hong Kong than most Hong Kong chinese immigrants. And now - the Hong Kong Indian community is almost 60,000 persons, and only a very small minority of them having chinese citizenship.
If you compare that with Taiwan, you should know by reading the other naturalization threads here that the attitude of the ROC authorities when faced with a caucasian applying for citizenship is to bring out the welcome mat. The risk that they follow the racist practice of china-controlled Hong Kong is fairly slight.
I even have another friend who got his ROC citizenship 4-5 years ago. He is of Parsi-Indian descent, and an occasional poster here. He did not report any problems when applying.
This contradicts your statement about white ROC citizens having trouble at immigration.[/quote]
That was my mate making fun of an improperly trained chinese immigration officer, who in the end gave up all resistance and let him in. Again, they let him in in the end, as I wrote in my post.
Motive or duration is irrelevant to application. What does it matter to a HKSAR passport holder who just received US citizenship that the motive for him being able to have dual PRC/US nationality is dealing with a colonial past? Likewise, Whitey McWhite who just naturalised in Taiwan couldn’t care less about the original motive for allowing naturalisation in the ROC being Vietnamese mail order brides.[/quote]
You are wrong again - as usual. The application in Hong Kong is different than from Taiwan. Hong Kong appears much more restrictive than Taiwan to begin with, and most of the clauses sited in the link you provided were put in in order to deal with the selling out of Hong Kong in 1997. That they are not struck off the book yet is because it would see Hong Kong gutted even more of talent than it already is.
You may post a lot of fine links and all that, which odds are that you spent 5 minutes perusing through before throwing them up here. However, it does not in any way disprove my main points, which for the dullest of china-bots are reposted below:
Taiwan recognizes dual citizenship, with the only restriction being if you run for public office or you naturalize. I would like to see the second restriction removed.
China does not interfere with the ROC citizenship law, and due to that china does not try to stop naturalized citizens from keeping their original citizenship, that is something the ROC government does. When it comes to residency here in Taiwan for foreigners, then the laws here are quite different too - if anything Taiwan is making it easier for us to gain permanent residency, the requirements are much harder in China. Also, the local debate on the requirement to renounce does not mention china at all.
You have to do better than that, sneak attacks and innuendo makes for a poor debater.
Well I’ve got some really good news folks, that I haven’t heard before on here or anywhere else - but I did find it through some searching on the LFY’s site: there are currently two bills in committee (Internal Affairs Committee), both of which include removing Article 9 from the Nationality Act and allowing foreigners to immigrate without renouncing their citizenship. There are a total of 37 supportive legislators at the moment - for all the details please check out this page.
OK, understood, I thought that the scrapping of article 9 had died a silent death, instead, you have 37 legislators in support and the rest not having said a word. That’s encouraging.
So what do we do? I plan to write letters to the 8 Internal Affairs Committee members asking to consider the merits of the suggestion. Are there any templates with the right arguments somewhere? Also, what else can we do to help this along?
A number of interested parties will be meeting soon (later this week), and I will be doing a full write-up of whatever comes out of that meeting.
For now, anyone who has the time and interest is encouraged to write or call their legislators, and to ask Taiwanese friends and family to do the same. Please make sure you fully understand the current legislation, the proposed changes, and the reasons for the changes. The website has all of the details on it, including a fairly extensive FAQ, and if there are any other issues please bring them up with me here or submit a contact form through the site. There are a few important groups of legislators we need to stay in touch with to make sure this thing happens:
The 召集委員 of the Internal Affairs Committee: 吳育昇 (KMT) and 李俊俋 (DPP)
The 12 other IAC members, 6 of whom are already in support of removing Article 9
The elected legislators who have not yet given any response to the proposed changes
The KMT and DPP coordinating committees to ensure that the at-large representatives are also aware of the legislation
Check the full list of legislators here and click the names to get contact information.
There is a template for letters available here, but obviously you should make whatever changes you feel necessary to convey your message. Also, if you are not a Taiwanese national, please make sure to clearly state that in your letter. Do not submit the template as is if you are not a Taiwanese national! If anyone wants another template for foreigners to send in, let me know and I’ll write it up.
Somewhat related: Chinese dissident Wu’er Kaixi (吾爾開希), an ethnic Uighir who moved to Taiwan in 1996 and a leader of the Tian’anmen Square protests, plans to run for the legislative seat that will be left vacant when Lin Chia-lung becomes mayor of Taichung. I can’t find any info on when he got his ROC ID card, though.
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]Somewhat related: Chinese dissident Wu’er Kaixi (吾爾開希), an ethnic Uighir who moved to Taiwan in 1996 and a leader of the Tian’anmen Square protests, plans to run for the legislative seat that will be left vacant when Lin Chia-lung becomes mayor of Taichung. I can’t find any info on when he got his ROC ID card, though.
One little suggestion for the website. I would change the font of the first paragraph (cause it’s thin and fades into the background) and would use a stronger color (black) for the rest. Gray looks too weak for my taste. If you want to make a strong point, use a strong color.
The only problem with that article - it’s not in Chinese! Otherwise, it really is an enlightening read and has definitely been part of the basis of my thinking about this whole situation.
As a matter of fact, many questions in the FAQ are based on that Taiwanease article, which I first came across when I saw it at the end of Forward Taiwan’s proposed legislation.
