You surely mean some people of a certain minority!? Not sure though if they speak on behalf or represent the others that don’t call themselves that, so the argument doesn’t really stick.
I can’t imagine Colin Powell saying “Nigga puhleeze” to his wife.
Exactly. So why is “Paki” racist?
[quote]The term “Paki” is clearly more about race than about nationality
[/quote]
I’m sorry, but Pakki clearly reffers to a Pakistani rather than a race, colour or any
physical features.
I would hasten to add that Black culture in Britain is different to that of the States and therefore a different sets of rules apply.
I’m sick of people telling me what I can and can’t say.
I can’t say “black board,” “Black sheep,” “Nitty Gritty,” “ragdoll,” and various other words for fear of them being offensive to people who take them out of context.
Now I’m not about to walk on eggshells for anyone and I am going to be as Un PC as I possibly can. These people are responsible for the deaths of thousands of people in America, Madrid and London. To me, this is offensive.
Abhu Hanza can preach terrorism freely on the streets of London and praise the work of the 9/11 bombers, I find this offensive.
If these people can use Isalm as a veil to spread terror can be indiscriminate with bombs then I can be indiscriminate when I label the people who did this as ragheads. Quite frankly, I don’t care and if people here want to nitpik about little words then feel free.
Now don’t take this a s a sob story, but I’ve had enough racism directed at me from minority groups through my school life not to really give a shit. I’ve been beaten to a pulp by (different) gangs of “ethnic youths” 11 times just walking home and I’ve lost my two front teeth as a result.
Old people in my town can’t go shopping because they get picked on by groups of asian youths in the shopping centre.
Asians v’s whites, not whites v’s asian, was a huge problem, as was Pakistanis v’s Indians.
I could have used stronger terms than raghead, believe me.
However, I still have the utmost respect for the muslims in my old community who are trying to advocate change. I deplore yobs who backlash against muslims when something happens, like 9/11 or the events today in London. I applaud the muslim community who turned their neighbourhood from an area of high crime to a reasonably safe place to live.
However, when people lash out at my countrymen in an indiscriminate way, then I certainly have the right to use my tongue indiscriminately. Whether I use this right is up to me. I know in my heart whether what I say is meant as racist or not and it’s not up to anybody else to tell me that I am being racist.
I’m sorry, but Pakki clearly reffers to a Pakistani rather than a race, colour or any
physical features.[/quote]
You are honestly trying to argue that if a blond-haired Norwegian guy were to move to Pakistan and become a citizen, that someone might call this guy a “paki” because of the passport he carries? I really don’t think you believe that.
I also don’t think that you believe that no UK citizens are referred to as “pakis” (which of course they would not be, if it were a term that was based on nationality rather than race).
Now, I agree with you that there is no question that the word “paki” comes from the word Pakistan. I even agree with you that it would be a fair generalization to say “Yeah, ‘paki’ is a derogatory term for someone from Pakistan.” But when you actually ask the question: What does “someone from Pakistan” mean? – it is quite clear that :
color=blue[/color] it doesn’t mean someone who was born in Pakistan (Say the Japanese ambassador has a kid while assigned there – is that kid going to be called a paki? Of course not.)
or
color=blue[/color] it doesn’t mean someone who holds Pakistani citizenship (Say a Pakistani man marries a black Nigerian woman, or a blond Russian woman who takes Pakistani citizenship – is his wife going to be called a paki? Of course not.)
but that
color=blue[/color] it can, and often does mean someone who is ethnically South Asian, even if that person was born in the UK and holds UK citizenship and has never been to Pakistan in her life.
I know you are a smart guy DM, and I have a lot of sympathy with some of the points you’ve made – but this one isn’t even a close call. At the end of the day you know perfectly well that a black person or blond person from Pakistan is not going to be called a paki, but that an Indian citizen might be, or that a Sri Lankan immigrant to the UK might be. Why are these things true? Because it is about how you look, not about where you were born or what kind of passport you carry.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]All black people who would refer to others as niggers should be considered ignorant fools with very little respect for others or themselves.
Some just happen to be good at rapping.
It is not a matter of “well, if they can call themselves that, then so can I…”; it’s a matter of being respectful to other humans beings and not degrading them as being anything less than that.[/quote]
Word.
:bravo:
OK, so you use the point that a blond haired Norweigan guy emmigrating to Pakistan would not be called a Paki.
However, here in Taiwan, I am a MeiGouRen. It is just stereotyping, regardless of any derogatory intentions. It works both ways.
Read above. However, British born Pakistsanis usually belong to Pakistani families which are very large. They follow the same cultures; a large proportion of British Pakistanis don’t intergrate with the wider society.
They support Pakistan at cricket. They send their money home to their extended families in Pakiststan and follow their own faith. I don’t think it would be offensive to label them pakistanis since most British born Pakistanis hold dual nationality anyway.
In the UK it is very easy to tell a Pakistani from an Indian. It is blatantly obvious where they come from judging from the way they walk and talk to what clothes they wear and to some extent, their facial looks.
Their cultures and faiths are different.
They are different and it would take a drunken yob walking down the street not to notice this difference. Unfortunately, your example of Indians being labelled as Pakistanis or vice versa is not a common experience.
Some of the terms have been or are typically used in a derogatory or pejorative manner only, while other are nothing but an abbreviation that is just meant in a friendly or at least neutral manner (Aussie for example).
That either of the terms is based on the word that defines the nationality does IMHO not determine if it’s slur or not, it’s more about with what intent it has been / is used.
[quote=“damafen”]The way I look at it is that if you choose to use such terms that describe someone based on their differing ethnic attributes/characteristics or religious stereotypes/practices then odds are their use is offensive. What other justification for the use would there be? And what is the point of drawing those distinctions through the use of such terms unless you are trying to be offensive or derogatory toward the individual or group? Why would some
[quote=“Dangermouse”]OK, so you use the point that a blond haired Norweigan guy emmigrating to Pakistan would not be called a Paki.
However, here in Taiwan, I am a MeiGouRen. It is just stereotyping, regardless of any derogatory intentions. It works both ways.
[a number of interesting comments follow…]
[/quote]
Well I didn’t see this coming, DM, but I think you may have convinced me that I was wrong – or at least that I wasn’t “as right” as I thought I was. 
I still don’t think that it has much to do with the country (i.e. the political entity) of Pakistan, and whether one comes from that country or holds the citizenship of that country. But you are more knowledgable on this topic than I am, and you have convinced me that I was wrong to assume that skin color/physical appearance were the only significant factors behind this term.
I now believe that I should have been thinking more about cultural characteristics as well. Of course Pakistan contains a number of varied cultures. It is also true that many of the cultural groups within Pakistan spill over the borders in various ways. Makes it a tough issue to get a handle on…
But I think you are right that just as citizenship/passport doesn’t tell the story, simple physical appearance also does not seem to tell the whole story.
Cheers,
I hate murdering terrorist silly-billies.
We are rarely considered terrs. Politics does not motivate us.
We prefer simple things like grudges, revenge for slights (both real & imagined) and insults to our animals, trucks and wimmen.
Oh…and sorry about the ‘git’ thing in the other thread.
[quote=“sandman”]I hate murdering terrorist silly-billies.[/quote]Silly-billies?
It’s only unacceptable to “society”. Well you are your own person, please say whatever you want to, no one has a right to tell you what you can and can’t say. If it offends them…f**k em!
Society is made up of individuals and therefore society is divided on what constitutes offensive language.
Are the words Ragdoll, Black board and nitty gritty offensive to you? These are words currently banned in the UK.
[quote=“Dangermouse”]OK, so you use the point that a blond haired Norweigan guy emmigrating to Pakistan would not be called a Paki.
However, here in Taiwan, I am a MeiGouRen. It is just stereotyping, regardless of any derogatory intentions. It works both ways.
Read above. However, British born Pakistsanis usually belong to Pakistani families which are very large. They follow the same cultures; a large proportion of British Pakistanis don’t intergrate with the wider society.
They support Pakistan at cricket. They send their money home to their extended families in Pakiststan and follow their own faith. I don’t think it would be offensive to label them pakistanis since most British born Pakistanis hold dual nationality anyway.
In the UK it is very easy to tell a Pakistani from an Indian. It is blatantly obvious where they come from judging from the way they walk and talk to what clothes they wear and to some extent, their facial looks.
Their cultures and faiths are different.
They are different and it would take a drunken yob walking down the street not to notice this difference. Unfortunately, your example of Indians being labelled as Pakistanis or vice versa is not a common experience.[/quote]
I can’t understand why you insist on calling people by names that they don’t like. I hazard a guess that the typical Pakistani does not like to be called a “Paki”. I’ve seen the results of this first hand, when I used this slur as a kid. If they accept this term at all, I would wager that it stays within that group.
If I introduced you to my friend Charles and told you that he only let his best mates call him “Chuck”, who you then say “Hi Chuck?”
It’s quite simple really: address people by anything other than what they find acceptable and one is showing fundamental disrespect for them. Individual, group, ethnicity, nationality, whatever. And yes, this means when dealing with groups we have to be boring about it.
Nameahottie (best post that was unread) and Hobbes had some very intelligent things to say about this already. I for one agree with them.
So, what would be the racial slur for a Norwegian…???
Meigworen, Weigworen, Adoah etc. does not work, because we don’t understand it.
The only thing here in Taiwan is that they mix up the great exploring vikings with the covard, stealing, killling pirates.
Hei Sk
Hang on a minute. Nowhere did I say that I insist on calling anybody by names they don’t like. I am, however, pointing out that there seems to be an imbalance in what different nationalities can lable me as and what I can call others, should I have the desire to do so.
I for one don’t like being called a Limey.
[quote]It’s quite simple really: address people by anything other than what they find acceptable and one is showing fundamental disrespect for them. Individual, group, ethnicity, nationality, whatever. And yes, this means when dealing with groups we have to be boring about it.
[/quote]
Well, that would be an ideal world, wouldn’t it? Especially if it worked both ways. Unfortunately, it’s nowhere like an ideal world and if you think that addressing nationalities, ethnic groups (I mean, what kind of label is “ethnic group” - I’d find this bloody insulting) and terrorist groups by names they like is going to go any way towards people getting on with each other, you’ve got another thing coming.
Agreed.
So I compiled a list at the start ofthis thread. Some people don’t like being called those names so lets be fair and have a blanket ban on everything to do with slang names that identify ones race.
Infact, why don’t we just ban the English language on these forums? I’m sure with enough time and research we could connect all the words in the English dictionary with racism through some sort of tenuous links. Seems that the PC brigade spend most of their time doing this already.
I am well aware of what raghead and paki mean. Let’s not try to argue that night is day by suggesting that they are not hateful; they are. Paki, although it is derived from the word Pakistan, most certainly does not denote nationality. I’ve only ever heard it used as a racial slur, likewise for the term raghead.
BTW, while we’re on the topic, we should also note that Islam is a very multi-ethnic religion. It’s extremist bastards will reflect that reality as well. In using terms like raghead and paki, you insult potentially all of middle-eastern/South Asian decent when the extremists responsible could be African or Thai for all we know right now. Best to stick with murderous bastards and religious extremists. They’re guaranteed to offend only those who deserve much more than mere insults.
“Gook” isn’t an ethnic slur. It’s the Korean equivalent of “ren” - it means “person”. Foreigners are “way-gooks” in Korea.
Same as “Polak” is mistaken for an ethnic slur, but is actually the word that means “Polish person” in Polish.
“Paki” is an ethnic slur if used in England using the English language, but it’s not if you’re speaking Punjabi in Pakistan.
[quote=“Dangermouse”]
So I compiled a list at the start ofthis thread. Some people don’t like being called those names so lets be fair and have a blanket ban on everything to do with slang names that identify ones race.
Infact, why don’t we just ban the English language on these forums? I’m sure with enough time and research we could connect all the words in the English dictionary with racism through some sort of tenuous links. Seems that the PC brigade spend most of their time doing this already.[/quote]
That’s quite the leap.
Look, I agree with most of what you said, however, I don’t see the logic behind the above leap. I’m now thinking this thead is more of a vent rather than a serious proposal.
People will always find ways of insulting each other if they want to. I think the point of having a bad-word list is to keep people from doing it unintentionally. It intercepts a lot of shit before it hits the fan. Some people really don’t know that some words are hateful.
As far banning all words of this category, if we must have a banned word list then it must be fair. So, out of respect to the millions of Whites taken from N. America in the great reverse slave trade, we shall ban “whitey”. My point is that besides a few isolated incidents modern Whites don’t know oppression. Thus, when a modern White mockingly finds a few words offensive it’s probably really offensive to those that have suffered real oppression.
As far as “Limey,” I can respect that you don’t like it.
It’s not about PC, it’s about respect.
Cheers.