Thanks for enlightening me, bob.
Now I understand Blitzkrieg, but I guess Donalds German is not too good.
Ah yes Fred, you asked about Iran and the result of the negotiations.
I personally do not believe any word, Iran will stick to the “peaceful usage of nuclear technology” thing they signed now. They seem to follow the idea “quickly get nuclear weapons and Bush cannot attack us”. So the US strategy has advantages (Ghaddafi turning into a gay peace princess / Saddams face off the telly) but also disadvantages (dicatators thinking about nuclear weapons to “protect” themselves).
If I were a dictator being targeted by US, I would either try the Ghaddafi approach (hey look, I am a peace-loving dude now) or the nuclear weapon approach.
As we cannot turn the wheel of time back and countries like Iran are a threat to others (support of terrorism), I think they are one of the greatest dangers at the moment. I think war could be the only solution.
In Spiegel.de a German called Schmucker is quoted, whose rocket-technology expert company gives consultancy even to NATO. He says Iran will continue to develop more modern carrier systems (rockets) and he does not believe they will stop to develop the nuclear “filling” for them.
Can Europe defend itself agins a nuclear-arms swinging Iran? Sigh, we have too much red wine and too less military for that, right 
Trust me when I tell you that Argentina’s problems were all homemade and that it was not the dollar peg or the U.S. style capitalism. This actually gave Argentina 10 years of strong growth, but the spending, corruption, patronage and lack of regulation at the very top.
Second, yes, we all see what successful efforts the British, French and Germans are having with Iran. And the media!!! Every day a new headline about how THIS TIME Iran means what it says about freezing its program.
Third, was Iran not trying to develop nuclear weapons BEFORE Bush invaded Afghanistan and Iraq?
Fourth, once again we have seen how the Europeans are asleep at the switch. Here, you have mindless millions marching against Bush taking out a tyrant in a country of third-rate importance to Europe while the democracy and peaceloving activists are doing what about the Ukraine? Any marches? Any solidarity? Any democracy? Talk about disgust. My contempt for European “intellectuals” and “peace activists” grows exponentially each and every time I read another such headline or lack of one.
Fifth, your wife is a smart cookie Bob Honest. She like Fred Smith lives in the real world and has a good dose of commonsense I suspect.
you know what’s hillarous? some lefty commentators are now whining that the democracy demonstrations in the ukraine are all a conspiracy by bush and the cia to move attention away from iraq. 
Now that you mention it, this photo did look awfully suspicious to me.
This confirms the rumor that many of the photos allegedly from demonstrations in Kiev were actually taken in other places. Note that, amidst all of the non-union Home Depot employees that the GOP brought in for the photo-op, one can clearly see a Christian church leader of some kind standing in front of a banner hailing the “Creator” (incompetent CIA stooges can’t even remember not to use English in their fake signs). Next to the representative of the religious right there is a country music singer. And then of course you see Karl Rove standing on the other side in a suit speaking to Bush on his cell phone: “Yeah, yeah, so far so good. I think the AP and Reuters guys are falling for it. Yeah…”
“If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.” - Uncle Jack
Yes it is home made, basically due to the currency board. Corruption is just an ugly side effect.
[quote]
Second, yes, we all see what successful efforts the British, French and Germans are having with Iran. And the media!!! Every day a new headline about how THIS TIME Iran means what it says about freezing its program.[/quote]
I never understood why some countries are allowed to have and use weapons of mass destruction and others are not.
Sure and why not? Looks like most governments think it is handy to have one …
Well yes to solidarity and yes to marches. Maybe you want to change the source of media you use for your information.[/quote]
[quote]
Fifth, your wife is a smart cookie Bob Honest. She like Fred Smith lives in the real world and has a good dose of commonsense I suspect.[/quote]
Its your world Fred, we are just living in it.
Really?
Robi:
Sorry, but you do not know what you are talking about. The currency board was not the problem. It was the corruption. Given that the currency board was set up with very specific and detailed government deficit requirements that were not followed, this was the key problem. The architect Domingo Cavallo was someone I worked with. He was brilliant and he told the government in 1996 when he resigned that there would be problems if they did not liberalize the economy (labor regulations) and stop spending so much. They did not listen to him, he resigned and 5 years later the country had a meltdown. This was all because of corruption and believe me the corruption in Argentina gave it the moniker “If Sicily were a country, it would be Argentina.”
[quote=“fred smith”]
Fifth, your wife is a smart cookie Bob Honest. She like Fred Smith lives in the real world and has a good dose of commonsense I suspect.[/quote]
Right, she is not German.
And I also think the EU’s achievements with Iran are worth nothing.
Hmmm… and your dissapointment why people in Europe do not march for Ukraine’s liberty. Interesting point. I was surpised by myself, some human rights violations made me want to take part in rallys and others left me cold … in my younger rally days. I think a theme must be kinda “sexy” to get people from the sofa. I guess Ukraine is still too peaceful to get people’s attention.
And I saw Ukraine on the map now. Boooaah … and I overlooked that! Ukraine sneaks south-eastwards on the map and somehow I only looked in the West-East direction.
So they suffer from corruption of ex-communists forming with police and administration a big ugly state-mafia, which is Russia-friendly. Otherwise they have a big beautiful country with a cathedral in every city and everything to get started into Europe.
It seems Schroeder wants to get Putin on the “respect Ukraine voters decision” for the repeated election to come.
Bob Honest:
I am not saying this with malice but can I challenge you to come up with the goods. What are the EU’s accomplishments with regard to Iran. The regime there is making fools of your government and leaders. They are being led around by the nose as is the media which each and every day dutifully reports that an agreement has been reached with Iran and that it will freeze its nuclear program, only we find out that this is not the case and then the next day we see the same headline only to find out that this is not the case and then you get the idea…
Iran knows that it can get away with this now because the US is preoccupied with the Iraqi election in January. It also knows that the Europeans are a spineless, mindless lot that just want appearances to appear good not realities to conform to those appearances. Iran will have to be taken care of in two years. The clock is ticking and we are running out of options.
I think that we must ready our forces for an invasion if necessary or at the very minimum a tactical strike and quick invasion forces to take out key sites. To do this, we have to lighten the load a bit in Iraq.
Since the Sunnis are the main problem, we should go to their leaders and say, we can no longer tolerate this. We have had elections. You participated or chose not to, now you must live with the consequences. Today, if you do not, we turn over Irbil to Kurdish management. Tomorrow, Kirkuk and then Mosul. After that, we can start turning over Baghdad and the surrounding areas to the majority Shia population. The Shias then could decide how to control the Sunni Triangle with whatever means they find it necessary to ensure “order.” Remember these are the same people that you ruthlessly slaughtered repeatedly during the past 80 years. You have a choice: dealing with us and cooperating or dealing with the Kurds and Shias. Up to you. Live with the consequences.
I agree with your opinion on Iran and think war is neccessary. We just do not see it in Europe at the moment. Them having nuclear weapons is really scaring me. And this war would be for the security of Europe and Israel. Such things are one reason I am a transatlantist.
People just cannot distinguish. I opposed Iraq war for tactical reasons, I said often enough, but in the long run terrorist-supporting regimes must be eliminated. 9/11 can only be a tea-party compared to what is possible today with biological and nuclear weapons.
Yes, EU is negotiating to mindless again. Negotiations are good, but here EU’s diplomats are like Chamberlain with Hitler I fear. “Peace in our time”, while Germany only wanted some more time to gets its tanks ready.
“Rocket-expert” Schmucker in this SPIEGEL (oder STERN) quote said he knows of carrier systems (rockets) which have “we eliminate Israel and USA can only watch” painted on them.
Interestingly enough or perhaps I should say ironically enough in any push comes to shove match with Iran, Europe and Israel will be threatened. Iran does not have missiles with a range long enough to target the US so any missiles and nuclear weapons will head straight toward Europe. I have almost reached the point of frustration with Europeans that I would say so let them and that’s what you deserve but I just cannot. When will Europe wake up? Probably never, but I certainly hope a few smart individuals in various government ministries are sitting up to pay attention to this.
Wonder what the peace activists are going to do about Ukraine? Any chains? rallies? protests? letter writing campaigns to Russia? Didn’t think so. My scorn grows to insurmountable levels.
well, if Putin stays on the peaceful path, there is not need to write letters to Putin. If not … hmmmm. hard to say what the people reaction in Europe will be.
I think a real invasion would get some people on the streets against Russia, but such an invation is unlikely. But still the protest-people are more left-wing and anyhow they still have the “against US” more in their heads than the “against Russia”. This dates back to the cold war and is a story of its own.
Russian troops in Ukrainian uniforms (they seem to be there already) doing the job are more likely. In this case many would think “Ukrainian business” and not care too much.
Bob Honest:
Given those reactions among the European Peace Loving Brigade, do you now understand my complete and utter contempt for them? for European style initiatives? for European style negotiations? for European style platitudes about human rights? supporting democracy? Do these people have no brains or no shame? Which is it?
Putin isn’t going to do anything overtly hostile. He is just telling Europe that this is a “Russian matter” and to butt out. Sort of like France told the Osties, er, Eastern Europeans that they “missed a good opportunity to shut up” when they came out in 2002 in support of the U.S. invading Iraq.
Viktor Yuschenko, the opposition leader who had two elections stolen from him by Putin and Kuchma, has an editorial in the WSJ today:
opinionjournal.com/editorial … =110005974
[quote=“Viktor Yuschenko”]During the Nov. 21 runoff vote, polling stations in the eastern regions remained open two hours after they were supposed to close officially. Some reported voter turnout exceeding 100%, while in other regions up to 35% of the ballots cast were from people’s homes. Election observers were prevented from monitoring voting and counting procedures at thousands of polling stations, as permitted by Ukrainian law. Thousands of poll watchers from democratic parties together with average citizens witnessed traveling thugs with police escorts harassing election commissioners, destroying polling stations, stuffing ballots, abusing absentee voter certificates and switching commission protocols, to name just a few of the 11,000 violations officially filed by us in the courts. We are now patiently awaiting the Supreme Court’s review of these complaints in the hope that justice will prevail.
…
For European and other observers, I believe there are four important conclusions that should be made with regard to current events in Ukraine:
-
What will happen in my country after the election will not only impact Ukraine’s future, but, to a great extent, the future of Europe and Russia.
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The world is witnessing a noble European nation, one that embraces genuine democratic values and, even more importantly, one that will stand up to defend these values with dignity.
-
The people of Ukraine have shown the world that we are much more ready to integrate into the European community than the ruling regime.
-
Currently the outgoing regime is menacing Europe with the threat of separatism and the dissolution of Ukraine. I state with full responsibility for my words: This is a fictional, artificial threat. It does not exist. The people of Ukraine recognize that an economically prosperous nation-state tolerant of its bilingualism and multiethnic society, and respectful of all religious confessions, is Ukraine’s strength and not her weakness.[/quote]
Please note: I have reformatted the second part of the above excerpt, adding the numbering. Also, these are relatively small pieces of the whole article; I believe I have faithfully copied his main points. Nevertheless, worth a read just to see the whole thing.
[quote=“bob_honest”]I think a real invasion would get some people on the streets against Russia, but such an invation is unlikely. But still the protest-people are more left-wing and anyhow they still have the “against US” more in their heads than the “against Russia”. This dates back to the cold war and is a story of its own.
[/quote]
Gee, reminiscent of anything else recent, do you think? Like the massive protests against the Iraq invasion but the notable lack of even the slightest notice of the U.N.'s, Russia’s, and France’s corruption?
First regarding Ian. I got into many themes, but let us do this first.
I was very suprised that all my governement is doing is to blame US for the possibility the MAY attack Iran - inofficialy. I mean, Iran is threatening Europe with the rockets, not US. Fred is right there of course. BUT instead of making clear to Iran we will not watch this situation, we are blaming US, who are the only ones who want to do anything.
I mean, US taking out Iran should be for us like getting a big shiny car for christmas, but … we do not want it.
Instead, we fall to blablabla and are happy like Chamberlain the bad guys said they will stop. Brrrrr.
Okay, please keep in mind EU is no state yet. What did Kissinger say: “EU, what’s the telephone number?” (I think it was him). This is the problem.
That’s why I want it to become a federal state with a governement, so you and I can blame someone directly and decisions can be done without consulting 25 countries or likewise.
You can also learn a lesson about our millitary. We have to be afraid of a desert nation assembling weapons! Europe is not able now to solve such a problem by themselves. Countries who called themselves empires can not tell a few beared Mullahs were to stuff their rockets, they need USA to solve this problem for them. Okay, actually they are even to stupid to see the danger, sigh.
In numbers: I once read all EU nations spend about half what US spends for milltary, but has only 10% of the performance. What a deal is this? But people in tiny European countries love to see their own armies marching around with their flags…
Yes, declarations of human rights are pathetic if you are NEVER willing to praticaly do something about them, if neccessary by force.
Only emphazising the federal structures can help there. And that is why France and Germany are in this case on the right trail. Then hopefully things will be different.
Right now EU almost seems like a country with a governement, that is why we dissapoint so many hopes. Because it is only “almost a country” right now.
Okay, why Germans are marchings so often against US on the streets and what is the source of this … I will post one more thing about it.
Kinda old psycho stuff from the cold war I guess.
Broon Ale:
HERE Read this… as in the thread in its entirety…
Oh for the love of God, can our European cousins be any more braindead?!!! Promoting democracy in the Ukraine is to be criticized? Much better to leave the country to gangsters and Soviet aparatchniks?
[quote]According to many in Europe, it is
[quote=“fred smith”]Oh for the love of God, can our European cousins be any more braindead?!!! Promoting democracy in the Ukraine is to be criticized? Much better to leave the country to gangsters and Soviet aparatchniks?
[/quote]
Please do not generalize every strange stuff someone said in Europe. I nerver heard such nonsense from home. Even spiegel.de was mentioning the US governement’s pressure on the Ukrainian election cheater in a positive way.
EU also supported this course. Okay, as usual a bit slower and not so tough like US. We are all accustomed to this.
Good news but not out of the woods yet. Where is the EU? Where is Germany? Send Schroeder to Kiev TODAY. Announce a major investment and aid package to assist Ukraine, but get there TODAY. Cannot Germany do anything? Where is the EU? Hell, where the hell is France? Anything would be better than this benign neglect. Now, is NOT the time to “lose” Ukraine.
[quote]Court rejects Yanukovych appeal
Viktor Yanukovych says he is losing hope of being declared president
Ukraine’s Supreme Court has rejected an appeal by Viktor Yanukovych against the electoral commission’s handling of last month’s re-run presidential poll.
The ex-prime minister had wanted the court to make the commission re-examine complaints about the election.
The results - yet to be confirmed by the commission - show his rival Viktor Yushchenko won by two million votes.
The Supreme Court ruling means Mr Yanukovych still has one more chance to appeal against the outcome.
On Wednesday, outgoing President Leonid Kuchma accepted Mr Yanukovych’s resignation as prime minister. [/quote]