Ewcp

Arts & Sciences Religion & Spirituality
21

http://www.ex-cult.org/fwbo/CofC.htm#freewill

By the nature of how cults work, it’s difficult or impossible to prove without physical evidence like torture. Behavioural things often are. That’s why so few of them face legal charges. And the ones who do get taken to court usually go for some other reason, not “mind control”. You don’t need to trust me but I will say confidently that I know more than one person with an “axe to grind”. Even if I am only saying it to myself. And they have good reasons. I believe them because I saw what they were like when they were involved with EWCP and what they went through to get out and rebuild. You can’t fake that. it concerned me enough that I googled/researched EWCP as much as I could do. that led me to post on forumosa at all in fact!

Perhaps someone will read that blog and decide to stay away. Or someone will read it and still decide to get involved. It’s up to them. But at least their eyes will be more open. I do believe it is an honest account because of those I know with similar experiences. I don’t know if one of my friends is behind it. If so they haven’t told me. I would not blame them - I would want to be as anonymous as possible. No matter which way one goes, it is additional information.

22

I’d feel more confident if I knew anyone with anything bad to say about the group… but out of the 20 or so expats who are in the organization or who have attended various events at EWCP nobody’s said anything worse than “well, all that spiritual mumbo jumbo seems a bit weird to me”. I’m not saying this to be difficult… actually, what I’m trying to say is that I might feel similarly if I were in your shoes.

23

I’d feel more confident if I knew anyone with anything bad to say about the group… but out of the 20 or so expats who are in the organization or who have attended various events at EWCP nobody’s said anything worse than “well, all that spiritual mumbo jumbo seems a bit weird to me”. I’m not saying this to be difficult… actually, what I’m trying to say is that I might feel similarly if I were in your shoes.[/quote]

From my secondhand information, that would make sense in fact. Most if not all “hook events” and “front groups” for cults don’t seem weird. I also have a friend who took a qigong class and said it was a good class. But then she went to some lecture with this “Master” and said it was bizarre. I know someone who went to a holiday party. She said it was fine, but she heard about the “bow down to the Master” parts and was not interested in getting more involved. Think about it, if the events held by the group that attract new members or non-group members scream “CULT!”, who would join?

this is from here http://www.ex-cult.org/fwbo/CofC.htm#recruit. The whole section has some good points. That just because you know people who have been to the events, it doesn’t mean that they were targeted for recruitment. The people you know who went to events would probably think it seems like quite a normal organization. If you know people currently in EWCP, if it is truly a cult, would they say “I hate that place, it’s such a cult?” Only someone who was deeply involved and has left would say that. “Well, all that spiritual mumbo jumbo seems a bit weird to me” could mean they chose not to get more deeply involved. Because they didn’t seem like good candidates, the organization did not try too hard to draw them in.

My point is not to push back and say you are wrong. From your side you probably have a rational opinion based on your experience. The difference is that my experience, through seeing people go through hell, is different. So I am offering it here. The big picture.

24

Trust me, I’ve been thinking about it. I know a few people who are very involved in the project so it is naturally of concern to me. Even if it weren’t I’d still consider it an interesting intellectual exercise. How exactly do you determine whether an organization is a cult or not? It seems like it isn’t easy to make falsifiable claims about cults. You can make persuasive arguments… but the actual logical quality of some of these arguments in the absence of hard evidence will tend to be very low.

This isn’t the same as saying that your hypothesis is wrong. No, my actual point, after some thought, is simply that figuring out a cult is harder than it looks. It isn’t always possible to obtain high-quality evidence when investigating any particular phenomenon… and the best cults will be very good at confounding investigation in any case. At some point we’ll be forced to rely on our gut feelings if we need to take action (for instance, if a family member is involved in a suspicious organization). I don’t… so I suppose I’m inclined to remain neutral, though I am certainly not without suspicion by now, having mulled it over quite a bit.

25

It’s almost impossible to make falsifiable claims about any belief system, which is why mainstream organized religion can exist alongside non-mainstream groups and even cults. Those that are cults rarely face prosecution. If they do, it’s usually for some spurious reason.

Even with abuse, it’s hard to know in daily life where the line is between problematic and abusive. Where does yelling at or swatting a kid on the bottom cross the line from “my grandma’s discipline, and it worked” into “abuse”? Where does a persuasive presentation or hard sell cross the line and go from “persuasive” to “coercive”? What’s the line between “informed decision to join a non-mainstream sect” and “subjected to mind control while recruited for a cult”? What’s the difference between recruiting a newbie foreign women who is probably lonely to join your tea-making class which leads to intense study of Tibetan Buddhism, which leads to only having friends within that organization, which leads to isolation from the rest of the world, and someone who’s lost a loved one “finding Jesus” and joining a strict evangelical church?

One way to prove it would be to prove that “Master Wang” aka “Khenchen Dorje Rinpoche”/“Shang Longrik Gyatso Rinpoche” was a fraud. But even the blog states that can’t be proven without more information. Though I do think the dearth of information on him is suspicious, when you consider how much information is available on masters of similar qualifications to what he claims. Nobody seems to know his real Chinese name, ID number or even birth date. And Tibetan Buddhist practices, even when they are legitimate, often seem suspicious to people who want to see Western-style credentials for their spiritual leaders.

26

If someone were interested enough, I bet – just from the cursory information given on the blog – that it would be a fairly simple exercise to find out the guy’s identity by poking around for real estate and household registration records if someone wanted to hire a run-of-the-mill detective agency to do so. The most disturbing thing to me is the described treatment of his dogs.

27

I really don’ t like to hear stories of animal abuse (especially pets) and not do anything. We have some pretty strong animal help resources on Fcom. I’m thinking of a couple of posters but won’t call names now. I would lke to report this to the authorities, if any, who can provide assistance to the animals. Anyone want to help?

28

I do. I don’t like to hear it either. I worry that the police won’t consider it animal abuse, and that the group won’t let non-law-enforcement animal rescuers in at all, not even to check out the situation, however. Ideas?

29

None of us are eyewitnesses, as far as I know from what’s been posted so far. I think we would need an eyewitness willing to talk before we could consider contacting authorities. If anyone who has posted here or on the blog knows someone who would be willing to attest to the treatment of the animals by this Wang fellow as described on the blog, I think that would be the first step to go forward. I suspect if the dogs were just caged for, say, part of each day – even though I strongly disagree with this practice – it would probably be hard to make a case. But if this character is really keeping pet dogs in cages 24/7 or close to it, and ignoring their basic animal needs for interaction and so forth, that is extreme cruelty.

30

I just noticed that this was turned into its own thread. I e-mailed the address given on the blog and got a reply from the person behind it. They aren’t able to testify because they are no longer in the country but promised to write more about it. And, they did.

leavingtaipeicult.blogspot.com/2 … onths.html

[ld][/ld]

31

Tibetan Buddhist credentials are not completely mysterious, and it should be a simple enough matter to establish whether Mr. Wang just made his up. For example, the Dalai Lama’s office might be approached for their opinion. (They have a list of groups which they recognize, and I’m sure this guy’s not on it.) While some unrecognized groups are of genuine Tibetan provenance, I have not seen any mention of a sect / lineage that Wang belongs to. For example, is he a Gelugpa, Nyingmapa, or what? Does he claim tulku status (i.e., is he a recognized lama-reincarnation?), and if so, who has recognized him? etc.

From the blog descrip[tion. Wang does appear to have studied Tibetan Buddhism (perhaps through one of its Taiwan-based offshoots / imitators that various entrepreneurial Chinese people have started, beginning in the 1980’s), and relies on several of its tropes to maintain group discipline. I’ve often been tempted to do the same thing. Only a funny hat separates me from some of these tulku claimants.

32

Here is a quote from “Master Wang”, aka Shang Longrik Gyatso, taken directly from EWCP’s website:

“Even when you are on top of the world, you are utterly unmoved by that; conversely, when the whole world is against you, you will accept it unbegrudgingly. […] Sometimes it is better to allow yourself a little trouble in order to avoid paving the way for disasters in days to come. This should serve as a sort of advice, which i hope you will accept, from I, Shang Longrik Gyatso.”

So, take him at his word and allow a full airing of views – whether for or against – and give his followers a chance to take him at his word and accept it unbegrudgingly!

33

xD

I’m right now having dinner in a Sciencetology church bookstore coffee shop xD

34

Also, what does the mod want?

Does he think someone will come out and talk about their involvement using their real name? Does he realize how dangerous it could be to do that? There is a reason people who speak out about these things stay anonymous. First, any ex-member still in Taiwan might fear retribution - stalking, harassing phone calls, all sorts of things that the police won’t do anything about. Any ex-member, anywhere, might fear having their name smeared online. No, that’s not ironic - criticizing a group with first person accounts is one thing. That’s how freedom of speech works. Going after an individual person under their real name because they dared to criticize your group - and didn’t do anything else - is quite another.

While you may get a user to sign up, come in here, and say “it’s me, this is my first person account”, how would you even know that they were telling the truth? You seem to trust the folks on the “blacklist of schools” to be who they say they are. I could go register a username at an Internet cafe now and pretend I am behind the blog. I won’t…but I could.

There are good times and good reasons to stay anonymous. This is one of them.

More “substantiation” - do a word search for East West Culture Project or scroll to near the bottom:

http://events.icsa.name/agenda-schedule

Is this convincing enough?

35

I have no horses in this race. I’ve never met anyone in EWCP except their PR folks trying to pull naive folks off the street. The mod of this forum is an old friend and he was not born yesterday. So what the heck is going on here?. Why would we even begin to be intimidated by this kind of organization?

36

If anything I have something to lose by having a horse in this race. I only do because I care about my friends who have been through hell. However, it is really not right to allow one group, the EWCP, to post links to their events which they have done, then to not allow someone else to criticize them and post links about that, too. I could go to the “Teaching English” forum now and post crap about a school I never even worked at. As long as it was first person you would believe me and not take it down even if the school complained.

But EWCP starts crying and you cave in?

37

Hi,

can anybody post here a link to any site reviewing this sect/cult? I’m interested in the topic. Thanks in advance :slight_smile:

38

If I re-post a removed link I’ll probably get banned, but you can find it here: jszimhart.com/essays/master_wang … _in_taipei

For other sites, a Google search should be enough.

39

[quote=“limoncello”][quote=“Zla’od”]I just learned about something called the “East-West Culture Project”: eastwestcultureproject.tumblr.com
Despite the Tibetan name of its leader (anybody heard of “Khenchen Rinpoche”?), the group seems to be Chinese Buddhist, and emphasizes Chinese-y things like qigong and tea-drinking (without yak butter).
[/quote]

I know this is a very old post but…

I think they may be one and the same. At least, around the area where East West Culture Project has their headquarters, I get approached often asking if I’m interested in “yoga”, “meditation”, “Buddhism”, “Chinese tea” or “qigong” by lively young foreigners or starry-eyed Taiwanese who want to recruit me to come to classes. Not likely. I’m a bitter, cynical, happy atheist. You couldn’t drag me to a meditation or qigong course! The most common hook among all of these seems to be the qigong angle, and every time it turns out these people are with EWCP.

Frankly, it’s a bit creepy. It happens all the time and other foreign friends - all women - say it happens to them too. Not the guys.

After some time I finally got to learn what EWCP is allegedly all about. I have been told a lot of horrifying stories about it being, basically, a real cult. We’re talking indoctrination/mind control/sleep deprivation/decide for you (all with “compassion” and “love” of course) who your friends can be. Keep you busy all the time, keep you thinking that if you just continue to donate money, recite your mantras day and night (lots of stuff to do all night so you’ve never quite had enough sleep, ever) and do everything The Master asks for, that you’ll attain enlightenment: the real deal. This “Khenchen Rinpoche” fellow doesn’t seem to be identifiable. Also goes by “Master Wang”. He doesn’t seem to be Tibetan at all and nobody seems to know his real, full name. They apparently target expats - especially lonely, single, female expats, but really anybody they think will be easily indoctrinated and can “do” something for them, including men or “rich” expat wives. :fume: There seem to be a lot of Taiwanese involved too. Some of the people who approach me are definitely local.

Anyway, this is all from stories I’ve heard - all “allegedly” or “so I’ve been told” but my feeling on the whole thing is :thumbsdown:. I would be a little stronger on these points but I want to keep it to the facts, what I’ve heard, and avoid “slander”.

But you wouldn’t know that from their website, and I can’t prove it either except for the stories people have told me. The website makes it look like a lovely group of creative, intelligent international types ready to be your best friends. But I have heard quite differently. Make of that what you will.

  • posted anonymously because nobody wants to end up in the crosshairs of a vengeful, angry, real-deal cult (if that is what they are, and I suspect it is)[/quote]

These groups prey on the weak. I have never been approached. I feel strong.

40

Specifically what my friends and the blog owner have said is that they prey on expat women. Either newcomers who are lonely, possibly insecure from feeling three times larger than everyone else in a culture where that is a big no-no for women, or not having many dating options, want friends, are interested in Asian culture/Chinese culture/Buddhism. They are seen as easy to recruit, convince and control. Whether that is true or not. I can see how there is a kernel of truth to it.

Or long-term expat women with money - the older trailing wives of businessmen. Why? They may be lonely considering the long working hours of their spouses, possible affairs their spouses have. And they’ll have money, so that’s more hong baos for the group.

There are Taiwanese and there are men in the group. I’ve heard they also target middle-aged Taiwanese women with family problems. But three people so far have told me there is a specific push to target foreign women. And I believe them.