Face it, the other side wins (War on Terror)

I don’t know how to respond to all that Jaboney. It is so all over the place. Let me just say that I understood Bush. I agreed with his polcies and I still agree with them. I read the newspapers every day just like everyone else. Bush did not call me personally to pass all this information on to me and me alone. I arrived at a conclusion that all of you seem to suggest could not be arrived at given what you think or don’t think that Bush did or did not say or whatever. I disagree. I have my own personal example to go on and Tigerman has certainly cited Bush’s speeches ad naseum. I think a good place to look is what Bush actually said in his special televised speeches and state of the union addresses. This is where presidents typically lay out their vision for the future. It was all there. I am sorry if you missed it but perhaps rather than arguing with me about what you think or don’t think Bush said, you should go back and reread these key policy announcements at least once and then come back to the discussion.

I still disagree with your characterizations of the Kissinger article and that you have any insight into what he actually was trying to say. I don’t think he ever would have been proud to be thought of as ruthless. Anyway, ironically given his ruthlessness that so many more people died and suffered because of caring people like Carter, no?

Don’t worry about it, Fred.

I understood Bush as well, I didn’t agreed with his policies and I still don’t. I read the papers, too, a bit. (Although, in truth, for the past four years I’ve had to read more academic articles than wire articles, so I’m afraid that I’ve been looking at different slice of the pie.) I accept (not “all of you,” just me) that anyone given the information available could arrive at your conclusions; I believe arriving at those conclusions is more probable if you begin with a certain set of beliefs–but those beliefs are not necessary to reach your conclusions. Fair enough?

I find your suggestion that “a good place to look is what Bush actually said in his special televised speeches and state of the union addresses,” is useful, but of limited use. If the question is the beliefs of the populace, it’s better to study the message’s reception than the text of the message. If the question is whether or not Bush actually lied, that’s a different matter. But I’ve made it clear that my concern is what the public believed, and the implications of that belief on support for the war.

You and Tigerman make it clear that you believe Bush made wass careful to make clear his reasons for going to war. I don’t believe that’s true. My opinions–arrived at on my own, using different sources (I’ve only begun read the NY Times in the last couple months)–are fairly well summarized here: [quote=“NYT Editorial, 24 Aug '05”]Most Americans believed that their country had invaded Iraq to eliminate weapons of mass destruction, but we know now that those weapons did not exist. If we had all known then what we know now, the invasion would have been stopped by a popular outcry, no matter what other motives the president and his advisers may have had.

It is also very clear, although the president has done his level best to muddy the picture, that Iraq had nothing to do with Sept. 11. Mr. Bush’s insistence on making that link, over and over, is irresponsible. In fact, it was the American-led invasion that turned Iraq into a haven for Islamist extremists.

When Mr. Bush articulated his “comprehensive strategy” for responding to the threat of terrorism, he listed three aims: “protecting this homeland, taking the fight to the enemy and advancing freedom.” The invasion of Iraq flunks the first two tests. But it did free the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator and may still provide an opportunity to inspire the rest of the Arab world with an example of democracy and religious toleration. [/quote] I expect that you’ll dismiss this as factually incorrect, the product of leftwing, blue state, media bias. shrug What can I say? Presently, this discussion seems bogged down in an ideological tug-of-words; an intensely uninteresting debate-team exercise in which there’s too little effort expended trying to understand the other’s position. I’m sorry, I’m not interested in such at this time. You continue to ask for proof of the truth of your opponents assertions, then–too often–dismiss it out of hand. I’ve been focusing on Kissinger’s analysis, so instead of more evidence I’ll once again offering you a Kissinger quotation quotation to chew over: “It’s not a matter of what is true that counts but a matter of what is perceived to be true.” No doubt anyone who has more than a passing interest in crafting political language is well aware of the implications that follow when this is applied to questions of whether or not Saddam was directly or indirectly involved in 9/11, or whether Bush deliberately or unintentional misled his citizens–and others–into war.

Finally–and forgive me if I’m misreading your tone, because I do try to give the benefit of the doubt–your suggestion that I “should go back and reread these key policy announcements at least once and then come back to the discussion” is condescending. I’ve read the announcements. I’ve been reading and studying the announcements since before Bush took office and they became policy, and I have cited such sources. I do not assume ignorance on your part, simply a different interpretation; I see no reason for you to do differently.

You’ve suggested, repeatedly, that I’ve misrepresented the facts. I’ve found, repeatedly, that you’ve misrepresented or misinterpreted my arguments. This strikes me as frustrating and unproductive–hence “more heat than light.” Thus my suggestion that we come back to it later. :idunno: The issues under debate aren’t going anywhere. A little time, a little more information, perhaps a different approach to the discussion… coming back to it with these things in hand may prove far more satisfying for both.

Keep up the good fight, and try to play nice. Cheers.

You keep citing newspaper reports about what the American people think or don’t think the president said. I am asking you to go directly to what the president said without the media filter and READ his speech and then decide whether you think that he did not make his case. Now, if you and others have different “views” then you cannot blame the president, you have to blame the media because he said what he said. If you have a different impression of what he said because of media reporting than you can hardly blame the president especially if you compare what was reported with the direct text of important policy speeches like the state of the union address and Bush’s speech to congress prior to the invasion of Iraq. Again, looking at what you managed to pull out of the Kissinger article, I would be very concerned about the level of critical reading abilities that appear to be coming out of American schools and colleges these days. Sorry, but when it comes to matters such as these, I do not really care how you or anyone else “feels,” I want to know whether you actually have a valid point.

That said, apparently, many Americans are easily lead by their feelings and not their critical thinking abilities. This is not a reason to change policy or blow in the wind like Clinton did because of polls but it is a reason to worry about getting the message through better. WE faced the same thing in dealing with the ostensibly intelligent, well-read, sophisticated, worldly European public opinion, but the truth of the matter is that so many of them are going on their feelings which are triggered by prejudiced views of that gun-slinging cowboy that allow them to feel intellectually and morally superior to the Americans when culturally, politically and economically they are losing out. That’s my take on the matter. So back to the public relations team since apparently this is what “sells” to most people. And if that is what it takes, let’s market this like a box of Cheerios and get the tagline repeated ad naseum 10,000 times a day so the critically unthinking have something to “think” about. Sorry if I am being sarcastic but I am truly amazed that despite the repeated posting of Bush’s speeches by Tigerman, so few are willing or able to digest what the man actually said. They keep running back to their media sources for their spin on what he meant. Take the man at his word for Christ’s sake.

Let me give you a simplified rendition of my views on this.

Fred Smith: I do not like broccoli. I have never liked broccoli. I would eat broccoli only if I were starving.

FRED SMITH WILLING TO EAT BROCCOLI, MAJOR RETHINK IN POSITION

Media: Fred Smith reports that he is willing to eat broccoli in certain situations. Broccoli growers took heart at the fact that Fred Smith was adopting a more flexible position to broccoli and the Broccoli Association welcomed what appeared to be a major rethink of the Smithian position on broccoli and a giant step down on the part of Fred Smith. Public opinion polls reflect that 65 percent of Americans now view Fred Smith as wishy washy and doubt his commitment to the anti-broccoli cause in view of the fact that he is now entertaining a like for broccoli on certain occasions. In the House of Representatives, Maxine Waters (D CA) welcomed Fred Smith’s volte face. “It’s about time he got with the program,” said Waters. “Broccoli is a healthy and delicious vegetable and Smith’s previous dislike was based on a racist, ethnocentric view with no basis in reality. I am glad that he has finally woken up to the realities and joined the party.”

I’m a big fan of what George Bush has actually said. :slight_smile:

You can tell a lot about how a person thinks from the way they talk:

“The best place for the facts to be done is by somebody who’s spending time investigating it.”

[quote=“spook”][color=blue](And my current favorite. I dedicate this one to Tainan Cowboy who’s a big fan of the concept that if you say it enough times that makes it true.):[/color][/quote]spook -
Thoughtful but misplaced.
That would be my response to the constant barrage of mis-quotes and specious attributions and allegations by mofa.

With your public admission of GW adoration, please post pics of the reults of this week-ends trip to the tattoo parlor.

A nice big
[color=red]GW[/color] [color=blue]RULES![/color]
scrolled across your chest would be nice!

[quote=“fred smith”]You keep citing newspaper reports about what the American people think or don’t think the president said. I am asking you to go directly to what the president said without the media filter and READ his speech and then decide whether you think that he did not make his case.[/quote] And I keep telling you that 1) that I have read what he’s said, 2) I have read the policy documents, 3) I’m interested in the reasons why the American people followed him, 4) understanding #3 requires understanding what those people heard, not simply what was said.

[quote=“fred smith”]Now, if you and others have different “views” then you cannot blame the president, you have to blame the media because he said what he said.[/quote] Unless he’s muddied the waters and obscured his meaning… but you’re unwilling to consider how that could be.

[quote=“fred smith”] Again, looking at what you managed to pull out of the Kissinger article, I would be very concerned about the level of critical reading abilities that appear to be coming out of American schools and colleges these days. [/quote] :unamused: Given your misreading of my arguments, there’s reason for concern all 'round.

[quote=“fred smith”]Sorry, but when it comes to matters such as these, I do not really care how you or anyone else “feels,” I want to know whether you actually have a valid point. [/quote] Fair enough, except that I never said anything about how I feel. I said I find your posts condescending. That’s a cerebral assessment, not an emotional one. Again, a misreading.

[quote=“fred smith”]That said, apparently, many Americans are easily lead by their feelings and not their critical thinking abilities. This is not a reason to change policy or blow in the wind like Clinton did because of polls but it is a reason to worry about getting the message through better. [/quote] 1) Why do you so love to turn the conversation, time and again, to Clinton or Carter? Occasional historical comparisons are useful, constant comparisions are distractions. 2) Emotional responses are not necessarily any less valid, legitimate, or informative than intellectual ones. We rightfully value and rely on intelligence, but the emotions are useful and necessary guides.

[quote=“fred smith”]Sorry if I am being sarcastic but I am truly amazed that despite the repeated posting of Bush’s speeches by Tigerman, so few are willing or able to digest what the man actually said. They keep running back to their media sources for their spin on what he meant. Take the man at his word for Christ’s sake.[/quote] I keep advising people to assume the best. But the benefit of the doubt only extends so far. And at least half of the message is conveyed by the means of it’s delivery. Reading the texts is of limited value. Had Bush and company wished to be clearly understood, it would not have been difficult to ensure that everyone understood. Your broccoli example’s a fine one. Remember when Bush (I) was catching grief from the broccoli growers for banning their product from his dinner table? The farmers were up in arms, hoping that he’d come out with some mealy-mouthed backtracking statement, and donated tons of the stuff to the White House. He came out and said, “I’m the president and I don’t have to eat my broccoli if I don’t want to,” and the veggies went to food banks. Any chance for the media to misconstrue his meaning? That was about broccoli. Broccoli. Bush (II) is dealing with a war. I’d think that he could have ensured equal clarity had he wanted.

You keep discussing the media’s ability and propensity to distort meaning. Have you never considered that the people preparing speeches, announcements, and press releases know exactly what’s going on? That they also do their level best to shape the message while working from documents that are subtly, but importantly different from the message emphasized?

You see, I continually try to read the best into other’s arguments, to give the benefit of the doubt, and to arrive at a more sophisticated understanding… if not of the issues, at least of the other’s position. I expect the same.

All right. We are at an impasse. Find me a quote from Bush that contradicts what he said in his KEY speeches. Do NOT go and get me some anonymous official with a bunch of poncy media “specialists” telling the paper in question what they think it all means. This is a media trick that is used frequently.

Bush gives a speech and then we have talking heads analyze it. What does it need to be analyzed for. He said he was going to clean up the Middle East since that is where the terrorists were coming from. He said that he was worried about Saddam’s intent with regard to wmds and was going to take him out before BEFORE he became an imminent threat. We were not going to wait until he was armed but were going to make sure he did not become another North Korea. I got this. I think most did. So now you go find a quote where he provided information that was counter to those of his state of the union address and the congressional speech announcing why we were going to invade Iraq. Get those and print them out here so everyone can read them and then find all those Bush quotes that would muddy that message. I am all ears. If you can show me those, I might be convinced, but I have seen nothing of the sort to date.

Second, show me again then how Kissinger’s article is an indictment of the Bush administration and its failures. I don’t see it. So how am I misreading your argument? Isn’t that what you said? Show me again where I am not getting this.

Getting back to the thread topic, please give me a quote in which George W. Bush said he was going to give the terrorists everything they wanted, seeing as that’s what he’s been doing.

What next???

Agreed, an impass. And not only us. If you go to FactCheck.org–an impartial political spin-watch org–you’ll find the following article:[url=http://www.factcheck.org/article203.html]

Bush Contradicted On Iraq & al Qaeda? Or not?
Even the 9-11 comissioners don’t agree about whether their staff contradicted the Bush administration.
[/url]
(Check out the supporting documents and carefully read their analysis.)

Even people paid to study this stuff are split on the issue; do you think that we’ll solve it here? It really does come down to a matter of interpretation. Another reason I believe looking at what’s heard is so important.

Until each side in the argument is willing to knowledge that there are good and significant reasons for reaching the opposite conclusion, and to give a sympathetic ear to the other side, the argument will remain at an impass… making additional efforts to dig up evidence or craft arguments just a waste of energy.


If you’re looking for reasons supporting my assertions, try this one:

Bush’s Iraq Speech: Long On Assertion, Short On Facts
Bush says “progress is uneven” in Iraq, but accentuates positive evidence and mostly ignores the negative.

Their conclusion on this one: “In summary, we found nothing false in what Bush said, only that his facts were few and selective.”

OK, so after all the usual Iraq blabla thread, what is the conclusion?

It is all a cunning plan of George W!

Let the enemy think he is winning, give him a whole country for free and then … [insert cunning plan here]

I don’t think all is lost. I hope for the best. I would have preferred that we didn’t go in, but it’s too late for that now. If we can get the Iraqi police to take over the job as soon as possible and then get out. That will be good.

Yeah, Richardm…Keep training the Iraqis. I just interviewed a young infantryman who returned from Iraq a couple months ago. He says there’s still a long looooooooooooooooooong way to go there.

Nope, no exit plan. I asked him if training the ING would end up being counter to the mission they went there for. He couldn’t answer that. He doesn’t like the Iraqis. Says they’re lazy, apathetic, and most would prefer if US just left them alone. They looked at him with sheer unadulterated hatred in their eyes.

He said NO journalists EVER dared to spend time in the FOB where he was stationed–FOB McHenry, located southwest of Kirkuk on the road to Tikrit. Just outside the city of Al Hawijah. A very dangerous region.

The young Spc won the ARCOM medal for his daring deeds such as protecting oil pipelines, training the Iraqi National Guard (ING), leading counter mortar attack (CMA) missions and erecting traffic control points (TCP), roadblocks placed along the routes of Northern Iraq. His unit searched cars and trucks for weapons, and frequently captured and detained insurgents on

[quote=“fred smith”]All right. We are at an impasse. Find me a quote from Bush that contradicts what he said in his KEY speeches. Do NOT go and get me some anonymous official with a bunch of poncy media “specialists” telling the paper in question what they think it all means. This is a media trick that is used frequently.

Bush gives a speech and then we have talking heads analyze it. What does it need to be analyzed for. He said he was going to clean up the Middle East since that is where the terrorists were coming from. He said that he was worried about Saddam’s intent with regard to wmds and was going to take him out before BEFORE he became an imminent threat. We were not going to wait until he was armed but were going to make sure he did not become another North Korea. I got this. I think most did. So now you go find a quote where he provided information that was counter to those of his state of the union address and the congressional speech announcing why we were going to invade Iraq. Get those and print them out here so everyone can read them and then find all those Bush quotes that would muddy that message. I am all ears. If you can show me those, I might be convinced, but I have seen nothing of the sort to date.

Second, show me again then how Kissinger’s article is an indictment of the Bush administration and its failures. I don’t see it. So how am I misreading your argument? Isn’t that what you said? Show me again where I am not getting this.[/quote]

As I understand Jaboney, feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken, there is an apparatus surrounding the President - Scott McClellan (msp?) and his shop, Andy Card & Co, Rove & Co., Karen Hughes, the State Dept., the Pentagon, the DOJ and other Executive branches that all have responsibility to promulgate the administration’s message - many voices can mold and shape and warp the “message.” Also, perhaps the media has added spin via pundits (or there is another one, pundits friendly to the admin who put message out - acting as surrogates for Bush). The point is - Bush has people like Karen Hughes and Karl Rove, I suppose, who read what the media is putting out there - and if they don’t think it’s accurate or if they have a problem with it - they jump in and clarify the situation. They are just as concerned with public perceptions and polls as the next politician. In the case of the Iraq war, they did little or next to nothing to change the perception that the major reason for war was WMD and imminent threat to the U.S. So, now you have a lot of American People as well as Europeans who feel like Bush and Co. lied. That’s at least partly Bush’s fault.

Bodo

[quote=“Jaboney”]You and Tigerman make it clear that you believe Bush made wass careful to make clear his reasons for going to war. I don’t believe that’s true. My opinions–arrived at on my own, using different sources (I’ve only begun read the NY Times in the last couple months)–are fairly well summarized here:

President Bush insisted on making that link over and over?

Can we have a few cites to such assertion made “over and over”?

I agree that Bush and Co. are very much at fault for not correcting the media’s misrepresentation of the reasons.

I agree that Bush and Co. are very much at fault for not correcting the media’s misrepresentation of the reasons.[/quote]

Yes, it IS terrible that the Bush Adminstration did not feel it crucial to manipulate the media for their own purposes. What utter bastards!

Fault GWB and his crew for putting too much faith in the American public to read the news and make up their own damn minds.

I don’t buy it. Children don’t become adults by maintaining a parent child relationship. It’s time the adultchildrencitizens in America grew up and realized they are in the adult world and they opinions and decisions actualy mean something, that they are in fact being listened to.

Forgive me if I sound like my great-grandfather who sent his adultboys to WWII with a slap on the back and a “Give 'em hell!”

time
place
right

If big piles of weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq anyone want to guess how “relevant” they would be now? :slight_smile:

[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“Jaboney”]You and Tigerman make it clear that you believe Bush made wass careful to make clear his reasons for going to war. I don’t believe that’s true. My opinions–arrived at on my own, using different sources (I’ve only begun read the NY Times in the last couple months)–are fairly well summarized here:

President Bush insisted on making that link over and over?

Can we have a few cites to such assertion made “over and over”?[/quote]

[color=blue]Okay.[/color]

“At this hour, a new generation of Americans is defending our flag and our freedom in the first war of the 21st century. The war came to our shores on the morning of September the 11th, 2001 . . . After September the 11th, 2001 . . . since September the 11th, 2001. . . The lesson of September the 11th, 2001 . . .Since the morning of September the 11th , we have known that the war on terror would require great sacrifice, as well. We have lost 1,864 members of our Armed Forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and 223 in Operation Enduring Freedom . . . .”
President Bush, August 22, 2005, address to Veterans of Foreign Wars convention, Salt Lake City, Utah

Thanks for the starter, spook.

Tigerman and Fred Smith, I’m working on your answer, but be patient, it’ll take me awhile. I’ve gone to www.whitehouse.gov/ and searched for “‘September 11’ and ‘Iraq’,” just to make sure that I’m working with primary sources. Unfortunately, that single search returned thousands of results. If you’d like to help sort through it all, the assistance would be most welcome.

[quote=“Jaboney”]You and Tigerman make it clear that you believe Bush made wass careful to make clear his reasons for going to war. I don’t believe that’s true. My opinions–arrived at on my own, using different sources (I’ve only begun read the NY Times in the last couple months)–are fairly well summarized here:

[quote=“Tigerman”]President Bush insisted on making that link over and over?

Can we have a few cites to such assertion made “over and over”?[/quote]

[quote=“spook”][color=blue]Okay.[/color]

“At this hour, a new generation of Americans is defending our flag and our freedom in the first war of the 21st century. The war came to our shores on the morning of September the 11th, 2001 . . . After September the 11th, 2001 . . . since September the 11th, 2001. . . The lesson of September the 11th, 2001 . . .Since the morning of September the 11th , we have known that the war on terror would require great sacrifice, as well. We have lost 1,864 members of our Armed Forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and 223 in Operation Enduring Freedom . . . .”
President Bush, August 22, 2005, address to Veterans of Foreign Wars convention, Salt Lake City, Utah[/quote]

spook,

That quote above does NOT assert that Iraq had anything to do with the 911 attack. It states that Iraq has become important in the WOT.

From that same speech, President Bush stated the following:

Try again… :unamused:

C’mon… this should be easy… I mean, if Bush really “insisted on linking Iraq to the 911 attacks over and over”… I expect you guys to be able to come up with at least 5 quotes where Bush states that Saddam cooperated with OBL in coordinating the 911 attacks.

Now, get to it!