Rob, seriously, I would have the utmost respect for you if you apologized to those you’ve been insulting here. I don’t think anyone needs your apology, but I think you do.
Self-flagellation. I’ll settle for nothing less. Oh, wait, he didn’t insult me yet. What the hell! Self-flagellation nonetheless. And he should wear a cilice for a month.
For what it’s worth, I never felt insulted by RobinTaiwan. But I agree, if I had, it wouldn’t be hard to “prove” he insulted me. I’ve got the “evidence” right here and the judge would likely be happy to read it. This is my point. He wouldn’t like the law so much if he were on the wrong end of it, so, yeah, maybe his empathy skills are a bit wanting.
And to him, I would also point out that after living here for 11 years or so, it doesn’t always feel like a foreign country. It’s not a mantra running through my head. If I were in Saudi Arabia, or even Malaysia, sure, I likely wouldn’t have flipped her off. Duh. I’m not dumb. But, after all, Taiwan brags repeatedly about its respect for human rights and free speech. How would I ever suspect flipping s.b. off would be a crime? This is why I feel you are, for some reason, out to get me. But, honestly, I don’t care. At this point you’re obviously fighting for your pride and that doesn’t surprise me in the least. But I hope it just drops. The thread’s grown too long already, with too much of this personal crap instead of on-topic posts. At least I found an excuse to start a second thread. Please don’t go poison that one as well.
I’m a bit drunk, so sorry for grammatical weirdnesses.
I know I am going to regret posting in this thread but I am curious which country are you originally from? Where I am from (Australia) it is relatively uncommon to see people “Flipping the bird”. As such, due to its rarity, it is actually quite offensive.
Maybe I am a bit sheltered living in the CBD of Melbourne, however the only time I have seen people exhibit such behaviour is generally lower class drunkards roaming the street harassing people, or “hoons” deliberately or accidentally almost causing car accidents and then getting pissed of at the person they almost hit. Which makes me wonder in what country is this common behaviour and/or not insulting? Are we just talking about USA and/or Canada?
I’m from Canada.
The gesture is most commonly used there probably by teenagers and college students attending sports games. It’s not widely seen, to be sure. There is one big exception, and that’s in traffic. People often flip it at others who make boneheaded driving moves. Another time it is commonly used is when people are getting their photo taken and don’t like it - exactly my situation.
I used to do it here in Taiwan in traffic sometimes. My wife (g.f. at the time) convinced me not too because I could easily suffer retaliation. I went and read some horror stories here on Forumosa that surely convinced me she was more than correct about this. So I stopped doing that.
I still think it is a lot less severe in meaning than a “Fuck you.” Case in point: George W. Bush was well known for hamming and pulling funny faces while doing sound/screen checks before interviews. Many of these were leaked onto YouTube etc. Once, he gave the finger to the camera, just to be silly. Now, I ask, would he ever have said, “Fuck you,” or “Fuck off,” to the camera in the same situation. I expect not, because that would actually be damaging to his reputation should it get leaked. But his giving the finger just came off as mildly humorous, somewhat juvenile, but totally harmless.
And celebs do it to paparazzi ALL THE TIME. I hope to convince my next judge that this is a normal and natural behavior to a paparazzi situation. My situation was very similar. I didn’t want to hide my face like a criminal, but I wanted to “ruin” her photo. That’s the simple truth. I never swore at her in any language. Thus, despite the law’s existence, I still cannot see my behavior as criminal. It was a normal reaction. Will I repeat it in the same situation? Of course not, and I did sincerely apologize for not being aware of this restriction on behavior here in Taiwan.
Two related stories in today’s news:
The student who blocked an ambulance and flipped off the paramedics has finally apologized. He’s going to prosecuted and probably kicked out of school. Obviously, blocking the ambulance is what has really pissed people off, but the fact that he also gave them the finger has been repeatedly mentioned as evidence of his recalcitrance.
Also in today’s papers there was a story about a doctor who was sentenced to 40 days in jail for saying “gan! (fuck)” to a patient in the emergency room and assaulting him. He was convicted of battery and public insult.
In both cases, there were much more serious offenses. But it’s pretty clear that flipping the bird or swearing at people is likely to get you in trouble and that you will get little sympathy from the courts or the public.
Aiyo! That’s not an apology. It’s an excuse, and it will be read as such by the prosecutor. “I’m really sorry, I didn’t know that flipping the bird at strangers was wrong in Taiwan.” If that is really what you apologized for, I can understand why the lady suing you did not accept your apology. 
I know you’re pissed off with me and won’t listen to a word I say. But seriously… Leave what you find offensive aside and read the underlying message. You really need to think about what you’re doing. The court has photographic evidence. You will have to apologize for “doing it,” rather than for “not knowing that you can’t do it” in Taiwan. That’s if you wish to garner leniency. 
Dude, please just STOP telling me what to do, OK?
You’re not my lawyer. You keep repeating the same advice. I get it, OK? What the f@ck is it with you?
I wish you luck on educating the Taiwanese in western ways. It’s an open forum, so I think Robin gets the fact you have no interest in his opinion, but it might provide some sound advice for future expats who unlike yourself dont wish to challenge the system.
Will you be kind enough to let us know how much not saying sorry in this case costs?
Before you restate your case, I get you had every right to be there, that she is being a bitch and is using the system to her advantage and all the rest of it. May I ask, as I am sure you have now made yourself familiar with the law, what is the minimum and maximum penalty for this law and where do you stand right now?
edit/ Not knowing much about the law, I have one more question, who benefits from the size of the fine you pay? please say its not the person you flipped off.
I think it’s basically NT$5000 (I’ll check that and edit this if I’m wrong) but the big problem is that, in my case, she can, upon conviction, sue me (suits are civil law, not criminal) for damage to her reputation. The normal process for busybodies making use of this law is to get the conviction, launch the suit, and then negotiate with the accused to settle out of court for dropping the suit. Most people are too busy to fight of course, what with time off work and all that, not to mention the potential costs of lawyers.
This happens a lot, and more and more often all the time as more of these parasitic sorts of people learn of this ancient law that can be exploited.
Given how its panned out, id pay that just so I didnt need to apologize. If he money goes to her, I imagine she will be smug anyway.
It’s worth trying to get an acquittal in order to nullify her civil suit. But even if I don’t, my lawyer seems to think he can certainly win the civil case based on the particulars, though I’m not quite sure why. It MIGHT be because this person already has a bad rep, or perhaps because the four witnesses all hate her already. But I’m not sure.
If I’m convicted a second time, I’ll have to think about things. But my first conviction was a farce. The court-provided interpreter had VERY poor English. The interpreters got progressively worse as I went along. The one for my Prosecuter hearing was not bad. The first half of my trial was dodgy. Then the third one was absolute crap. Plus, by that time the judge didn’t seem to give a rat’s ass what I had to say anymore; he’d already decided, I believe, that since I didn’t apologize in a particularly humble fashion, that I ought to be punished. I say he should have been more specific as to the style of apology required.
Here’s the apology letter, redacted a bit. Not sure of the quality of the translation; it was done by my wife. I want to reiterate that the woman actually denied in court having received this until I said I had a video of her receiving and reading it. The judge didn’t mind this contempt of court one little bit. And my lawyer says such contempt of court is not a crime in Taiwan. :loco: She also lied in court saying she was accompanied by a sympathetic witness of her own. The four actual witnesses were enraged to hear this.
NOTE: I really don’t want to hear from RobinTaiwan or anyone else their opinion of how the tone of my letter, or my little jibe about free speech, did me in. That may very well be the case, but I’m sure everyone can judge for themselves whether I screwed myself at this point or not. Personally, I don’t think it would have mattered, but this point is so debatable that I kindly request that it not be debated.
I personally feel she was not just going to drop everything if my letter were more grovelling. You just have to know this woman to understand my saying so. Others who have had run-ins with her agree with me on this. I think a “better” apology would have just had me in civil court sooner. She is out for money, in my opinion, or she wouldn’t be spending so much time on me. (She sues people all the time according to the Guanli. She charged 5 other people for “tresspass” the same day as me.)
Of course, any of you that are lawyers are more than welcome to offer an informed legal opinion on this point, but if you don’t really know what you are talking about, please don’t go off on this one. Pretty please. It’s not my ego I’m worried about, it’s the readability of the thread.
Since your intent is to make this thread useful to others, why not summarize what you’ve learned? I’ll summarize what I have learned, for the public’s benefit.
- The public insult law is taken seriously in Taiwan.
- It is inadvisable to making insulting gestures or statements to anyone in Taiwan, especially in view of others.
- It is even more inadvisable to pose on camera making said gestures.
- If you offer an apology in court, do so contritely and completely, without any limitations, apprehensions, hesitations, or qualifiers.
- It is inadvisable to believe you are Rosa Parks, a trail blazer for human rights, bound to affect a positive change in the laws of Taiwan. You are a hairy, stinking barbarian, and nobody cares what YOU think should be the law. No really, NOBODY cares. You’re a foreign nuisance. Just shut up and take your punishment, and since you offered us such a half-assed apology in our courts, now we’re REALLY going to hurt you, and we’re going to find against you in criminal court and give the complainant massive leverage to extort huge sums from you in a settlement during the civil proceedings. You’ve done nothing but waste your own time and money, LOTS of both, and NOTHING to show for it.
That’s what they told Rosa, I bet. More or less.
As for most of the rest, yeah people can glean that from the first couple pages. No need for your summary.
The criminal fine is the same no matter what. The civil suit, if it happens, will be over damage, not guilt or atonement. (i.e. It’s a suit.)
What’s up your craw anyway? I’m just telling you how things went.
YES you’re very sheltered.
I’ve lived in a dodgy part of the UK, the deep south in the states and an ‘average’ suburb in Brisbane (as in, not a bogan suburb but also not a bogan-free suburb - the amount of Chinese people probably saved it, actually). The only place I’ve seen behaviour your described on a fairly regular basis is actually Brisbane. People don’t do it quite so much in the UK because there’s every possibility that you’ll get shanked for it (they tend to do it more in slightly nicer areas where people are less likely to be armed). Never saw it where I was in the States, but then I was never in a city. But Australia? Yeah, saw it all the time.
Sorry, but there’s a reason everyone takes the mick out of the kid from Melbourne… it’s a totally different world.
Flipping the bird is like any other insult. Between friends, it’s not going to be taken seriously. Do it to a stranger and it will be. I don’t understand the OP’s defense. First he wants to try and get a statement from a higher court that the public insult law violates the constitution, now he’s trying to prove that flipping the bird is not offensive and so doesn’t violate the law. Flipping the bird is offensive. The law is stupid and I don’t agree with it, but his gesture was clearly offensive and meant to be.
In terms of magnitude, I can’t see it as a Rosa Parks kind of issue or a Tinker v. Des Moines kind of issue, but as far as I’m concerned, the OP has every right to dispute with the plaintiff in court, if he chooses. That’s what the court’s for. He also has every right to take any approach he chooses, as long as it is within the law and the rules governing conduct in a court proceeding.
As for whether it’s wise or unwise, that’s a matter of opinion. Everyone’s entitled to theirs, but it’s ultimately his right to decide these things.
Only if comprehensible facts fail to prevail in the determination of which is wise or unwise.
I don’t agree with this statement. Flipping the bird is NOT an insult. Calling someone an asshole is. Calling someone fat is. Yelling: fucker, shithead, cunt, or even dumb ass…all insults. All of these words are meant to describe something about the person or his/her character. Flipping someone the bird says NOTHING about the person. I see it (in this case) as equivalent to “go away.” I can think of no instance where it says something about the ‘flipee.’ I don’t quite understand how Taiwan defines this as an “insult”-it honestly makes no sense to me. Is it rude? Sure, but so is flicking your chin…not that anyone here would catch that.
This is a stupid law. Period.
I just saw a kid walking around in a shirt that said “Taipei Fucking City.” I thought about calling the cops 
I agree its a stupid law but…
Flipping the bird not an insult? If you called someone an asshole where I come from in California, you would be doing what we call ‘getting in someone’s face’, You may or may not have to defend yourself at this point.
But if you flip someone off, you’d better damn well be ready for them to come after you.
I guess it just means different things in different places.