Apparently ideas about the issue differ here, too.
A prosecutor said that “F*** your mother” is not necessarily a public insult:
Egging the President’s house, though, apparently is:
Someone thinks “Auntie” is an insult:
An alleged sexual assault victim sued the alleged perpetrator for calling her paranoid:
A doctor allegedly revealed confidential information at a press conference. The doctors who were present with him sued a newspaper for saying that what they did was audacious:
A woman sued a prosecutor for public insult and sexual harassment. Three guesses how that one turned out:
Here’s the China Post’s editorial take on the public insult law:
This is exactly how I felt, and you express it nicely. I told the prosecutor basically the same. He asked me what it meant, and I said it can mean a lot of different things. As I used it, I insisted strongly, it meant “Don’t take my picture.” He obviously didn’t agree with me. I was surprised when I was summoned to court because the woman acted outrageously rude in his hearing room. I left the prosecutor hearing very confident.
Today’s Taipei Times tipped me off to a recent, relevant case in the U.S.
Seems the US doesn’t always take as liberal a view of free speech as I had thought. When I took a course in Canadian constitutional law, if I remember correctly, the Canadian courts limit free speech in just a few areas, notably the “shouting fire in a movie theater” situation, and also notably “hate speech.” I can’t remember the details of our discussion so long ago, but I expect we also discussed limits to protect young people from obscenity. But we still have no great firewall to stop kids from finding Internet porn, do we? That’s left to the parents to control. But a shopkeeper can’t display porno mags or DVDs too openly I believe. Otherwise, I think anything goes in Canada, unless one is harassing others with their “free speech.”
Performing an action that may make some idiot physically assault you does not make that action an insult. If I give you the finger, does it say anything about you or what I’m thinking of you…in any circumstance? I honestly can’t think of one. Even “fuck off” is not an insult…has nothing to do with the person. Giving the finger and saying “asshole” is an insult, because then I am calling you an asshole. (BTW, I don’t think you are an asshole, so please don’t sue me )
I can. That’s what its used for. I mean, sure, you can write a two-page precis describing your feelings of anger at him cutting you off in traffic, revulsion at the fact his parents copulated, etc., and mail it to him. Or you can give him the finger. Either way, you’re saying “fuck you, asshole!”
And that is, to me at least, somewhat in the realm of insulting.
I don’t know of anywhere – certainly not any of the many places I’ve ever lived – where “fuck off” to a stranger is NOT an insult.
And giving the finger is a LOT worse than “fuck off” where I come from, too. It means: “You cocksucking motherfucker! Come over here and I’ll fuck you up and then I’ll come to your house, rape your dog and beat your wife!” Only a LOT, LOT worse.
I still believe I wasn’t insulting her. Insult is in the eye of the beholder, that’s what you’re saying Sandman. I know quite well how to insult someone in Chinese. I did not use these words toward her. I used the chosen gesture, which I admit to be somewhat offensive (and apologized for), because the camera could not record the words, “Don’t take my picture!”
I wanted the photo she took to clearly show that I didn’t want my photo to be taken. This is what celebrities do to paparazzi all the time. (Come on, click that link. How many fingers do you think you’ll see?)
For example, here’s Ben Affleck doing it. He’s supposed to be a nice guy, right? Why would he insult the camera-wielder with such a terribly rude gesture? Well, maybe because it’s the natural thing to do in such circumstances.
Now just why Ma Ying-jeou once used the amazingly offensive “fist of honor” gesture, I’d sure like to hear. But perhaps the circumstances also warranted it. What would be the consequences of using that gesture where you come from, Sandman?
Really. It’s just that simple. There’s no arguing that point. You can say in Ghana smacking you in the head is saying hello if you want, but what it is is what it is.
Tempo Gain - There is arguing that point. We are arguing it right now.
Thank you very much, Charlie Jack, for the useful links. I hadn’t seen a couple of those yet. My lawyer is going to like the case of the prosecutor deciding that intent mattered in the case of the two taxi drivers. As I explained in my first post or two, the Taiwan High Court did examine A.310 of the Criminal Code to see if it contradicted the constitutional guarantees of free speech or not. They upheld the article, but noted that judges must take intent into account and that lack of intent to defame implied innocence on the part of the accused. Too bad for me and many others, they didn’t examine A.309 at the same time. A.309 is clearly written as part of the defamation laws. The full section of laws regarding “Crimes against reputation and credit” is quote at the top of the thread.
Over the years, most prosecutors and judges appear to have ignored the intent aspect when dealing with A.309. And I suppose they don’t like to hear from defendants that it matters - who are we to teach them law? Perhaps my lawyer, being an ex-judge, can bring up this point more successfully.
That’s generally how such a gesture is interpreted in many, many parts of the world.
No you didn’t. You apologized for being unaware of the law in Taiwan. You never apologized to the lady, in fact, you still refuse to see your behavior as insulting.
Can you imagine someone getting busted for smoking dope and showing pictures of people smoking in public in Holland to a prosecutor? “Look, dope is legal in Holland so why are you charging me for doing this?”
Irrelevant. Different legal system altogether. In case you haven’t noticed, you’re in Taiwan now.
Since you’ve stopped attacking me personally, I guess I will interact with you again. (Like I really stopped.)
About the paparazzi photos, it is not a matter of it being legal to flip off paparazzi, but that my reaction to an unwanted camera pointed at me is totally normal and understandable. This is highly relevant to determining my intent. And at least some legal officials in Taiwan believe intent matters for the insult law, and I would add and hope my lawyer concurs, this is logical since the High Court has clearly stated that intent does matter 100% in cases of defamation. Really, the whole section of the Criminal Code groups the insult law with the defamation (libel/slander) laws.
I thought you meant to use such images to show that the law in Taiwan is not appropriate. That would be stupid. If you use such images to explain your intent, however, I think that would be fine but NOT without a proper apology. Without a proper apology, you are threading on very thin ice.
If you want to make a case that you had no intentions to insult the lady, you have to apologize to the lady. Think about it. If you really had no intentions to insult her, then you should have no problems apologizing to her in the event that, despite your intention, the lady feels gravely insulted.
Let’s say you were riding a bicycle on a path where only pedestrians are allowed. You then hit a pedestrian and cause injury. Should you apologize because you didn’t know that bicycles are not allowed on this specific path or should you apologize for causing injury? In this case, it’s clear that you did not intend to cause injury. You did not ride into that person on purpose. Does this mean you shouldn’t apologize to the victim? Would it be acceptable to simply say “I’m sorry I didn’t know bikes aren’t allowed on this trail?” I think you can understand which “apology” is likely to garner more leniency. Your case is no different in that respect, except that you also have the burden of proving your intentions.
Clarifying your intentions to the court is important in your case, but without a proper apology for the “harm” you caused, whether you agree with its legitimacy or not, your plea will fall on deaf ears, in my opinion. In fact, it already has.
And then…
I told you so.
I told you so.
I told you so.
You wanted lawyers to tell you what they think. I am a lawyer, I told you what I think and you felt insulted. Additionally, you did the opposite of what I told you you should have done, and now you seem surprised or disappointed that the system is hard on you. Aiyo!
Regarding your ex judge/lawyer, I’m under the impression that he is milking you… But I’d rather not enter the realm of speculation on this matter. It’s just an impression I have…
On the Lee, Tsai & Partners website there is an interesting discussion, in both English and Chinese, of a particular public insult case that was decided by the Taiwan High Court. The English version of the Lee-Tsai discussion is here. What appears to be a Chinese version of it, on the same site, is here.
The English page seems to designate the decision as “98-Shang-Yi-3150.” I believe the Chinese is 98年度上易字第3150号. (Another law-related website appears to contain a brief digest or summary of the case, or some aspect of it, in Chinese; that digest is located here.) The following is a pasting of parts of the English discussion of the case on the Lee-Tsai site linked above (three asterisks indicate the omission of a large amount of text):
Well, I was reluctant to admit my intention was to insult by apologizing for insulting. That makes sense doesn’t it? I repeatedly insisted I was angry but did not mean to insult or defame her. If that was my intention I would have used foul speech. And after being taken to court, I came to feel she was wanting my written apology so she could file a defamation suit. She merely promised to drop the criminal complaint if I apologized. The judge just wanted us both out of his hair I presumed.
Interesting, but IMO it’s not a particularly suitable analogy for my situation. I’m insisting there was no reasonable way I could have known that my reasonable response was an illegal one. Maybe I should have found a different way to write the letter. I’d like to have another crack at it, yes. But if she was truly “hurt” by my gesture, I’ll eat my shirt. By the time I’d written that letter, many people had told me that she is a viper.
You don’t need to tell me that. The judge and I were not on the same page at all. He didn’t want to hear arguments about intent.
This is why they have an appeal process I guess.
You’re a lawyer? Wow, I’m honestly surprised. I wouldn’t have ever guessed from your posting style, and I’m not being facetious. On the matter of skin thickness, I specifically stated of my own free will to the other Forumosans that I didn’t feel insulted by your comments. I just thought they were out of line focusing on my temperament rather than the case at hand. I had already stated (in so many other words) a few times that my temperament was losing me the battle. Keshi, wo de lianpi ye bijiao hou.
I’ve never expressed surprise at this. I was surprised at how bad the translators were. I was surprised the judge wouldn’t deign to listen to my reasoning (and I didn’t go into the constitutional stuff at all; I know this is not the court for that; the criminal code itself is not on trial.)
And I didn’t do the opposite of what you told me to do. There are some verb tense, cause and effect issues in that assertion! (I had to check the thread to confirm this, and it’s true. You never chimed in until after my second-half trial appearance (following my ineffectual half-apology).
I’ve been wondering this too. I’ve only met him once for any length of time. The “very cheap” price (wu wan kuai qian) my in-laws seem to like sounds like a lot for a few hours work to me. I don’t think it took him more than 10 minutes to file the appeal. The next court appearance won’t last more than an hour, and I figure his prep time will be minimal, with me providing him most of the relevant research. That said, I have made up my mind that I want a Taiwanese lawyer above all else. And, I certainly do like the fact he used to be a judge. I think this will ensure our arguments are given a respectful hearing.
50k NT in lawyer fees, right? Does she have a lawyer, and will you need to pay her costs? Plus the 5k you say is maximum under criminal law and then civil lawsuit, which so long as this woman isnt loosing financially Im sure she will.
If I am following you are more concerned with what might happen with a civil suit. May I ask, if you had made some sort of groveling apology right away instead of just apologizing for not knowing that what you were doing was wrong under Taiwan law, yet not really admitting guilt. What sort of bearing would that have on the civil case? Any idea of what can be claimed in a civil suit?
Apparently in Taiwan, losers don’t have to pay the costs of the other party. This, many believe and I agree, invites frivolous actions like this one. It also means a lot of innocent people simply settle out of court to get suits and complaints dropped rather than spend money fighting them. This gets exploited frequently.
(For example, parents of a child I taught got nearly NT$100K from the parents of two boys that were playing when their daughter fell and broke a tooth. It was a playground and it was just as likely she bumped them; it was an accidental, back-to-back bang-up. The two boys weren’t playing with that girl. But the boys’ parents were too busy to fight a suit. They settled. One of them was a lawyer too! How nine-year-olds can be liable for an unintentional playground bump is beyond me.)
I’m not sure I understand your “May I ask…” question. If you’re asking what I think would have happened, I feel quite certain that a better apology would not have ended my troubles. I’ve been told that she has gone after a lot of people in similar fashion. I think she was trying to set me up (and others) from the get-go. She charged six people with trespass on that day. I was one. She has put ropes across stairways that neighborhood residents use every day. I’m not sure if she then tried to charge people who ignored the ropes, but everyone did. She claims to own all the streets in the neighborhood, the water pipes and some of the land blocks around. There is some basis to theses claims I’m sure, but there is a countervailing view too. The whole neighborhood is in legal limbo. She and the Guanli are entangled in many lawsuits, so I’m told by the Guanli. She claims to represent some company that is actually bankrupt and owned by a person who, so I’m told, lives in the US and won’t come back.
I’m not sure what bearing any apology would have on the civil case. But I was worried about that when I wrote the apology. Part of me says I shouldn’t have even written any sort of apology at all. I forget what my lawyer thought of the apology. (I only got him after being found guilty.) But from what I understand about Taiwan’s trial system, when an appeal happens it’s like a whole new trial starting over. In fact, so far, nothing seems to have carried forward - not my statement to the police or to the prosecutor. I kept getting asked the same by both prosecutor and judge (twice), basically this: “What do you say to these accusations?” (And that’s an approximate quote. When I asked if this meant “How do I plead?” it seemed to confuse them."
My lawyer says he can “guarantee” me a win in the civil suit even if I lose my appeal. I’m not sure why he feels this way.
I’ll post a big update after I meet with him again. I’m still waiting for my appeal to be scheduled.
Unlike the UK, you don’t need to pay for the other side’s lawyer if you lose. You do have to pay court costs if you lose. These are not more than 4-5% of the claim.
Your lawyer charged you NT$50,000. This is a very standard fee for each the first two levels (trial and appeal). Most local lawyers in fact charge about NT$4 to 5,000 per hour (may be a bit less in Kaohsiung). So he will budget about 10 hours of his time for your case. You will rack up at least an hour for each hearing. How much time has he had to spend meeting with you and talking with you about your case on the phone. At least two hours I would guess. He probably also had to write a pleading for each hearing. At least one hour each. So if you had two hearings that’s at least six hours gone.
A guarantee!! Get that in writing if you can so you can sue him if you lose, He must be figuring that the woman won’t be able to prove any damages and that court will think you have been punished enough already.
You are confusing them by asking about how to plead. They will think of the word ‘pleading’–i.e. a written submission to the court of your arguments.
Oh, and by the way, a Mr. Wang in Chiayi County filed a criminal complaint against his neighbors for allegedly teaching their Crested Mynah bird to say ‘baimu, baichi’ (loser, idiot) when he passed by. He claimed this upset him and made him unable to focus. As a result, he suffered a shock at his job in a factory in Liuying while operating machinery and suffered burns on two percent of his body.
The prosecutor found that since the Crested Mynah did not call him by name and said the same things to passersby and children, the insult was not directed at Wang. Also, Wang had gone to bed the night before after 10pm and had gotten up at 6AM. Normal people need seven hours of sleep to be well-rested, so Wang should have been able to focus at work since he was well rested (it also being found that the Crested Mynah was normally fairly soft spoken and did not call out at night). An decision not to prosecute for public insult was handed down.
Thanks. I’ll probably even visit a temple beforehand.
You noticed my last avatar! I feel good about that. I was proud of that avatar. I saw an interview with her while she was up there in the sky, and she just seemed so etherially zenlike and hyper-intelligent that I immediately added her to my mental list of heroes, (or heroines). I also liked posting her face around Forumosa because she was ignored by the American media due to her ethnicity. And it probably annoyed fred smith too, which is always a plus.
Well, earlier in this thread, people started telling me my admittedly unrealistic hopes to play some role in helping to get rid of this foolish insult law (or at least get the High Court to examine it) was a quixotic quest doomed to fail. So, I thought maybe this avatar would help.
But let me say for the record, any comments I’ve made about reformative fantasies (or Rosa Parks) were made tongue-in-cheek. I’m sure most Forumosans would expect so much, but a few posters seem to misread me a bit. Even if I ignore some advice, it doesn’t mean I’m doing so because I’m on a quixotic quest to change the local legal system.
)
Bit drunk when I posted that sorry. The gist of my opinion was well represented though.
