Flipped the bird, charged under Taiwan's "public insult" law

[viba]

@Feiren

Oh, and by the way, a Mr. Wang in Jiayi County filed a criminal complaint against his neighbors for allegedly teaching their Crested Mynah bird to say ‘baimu, baichi’ (loser, idiot) when he passed by. He claimed this upset him and made him unable to focus. As a result, he suffered a shock at his job in a factory in Liuying while operating machinery and suffered burns on two percent of his body.

The prosecutor found that since the Crested Mynah did not call him by name and said the same things to passersby and children, the insult was not directed at Wang. Also, Wang had gone to bed the night before after 10pm and had gotten up at 6AM. Normal people need seven hours of sleep to be well-rested, so Wang should have been able to focus at work since he was well rested (it also being found that the Crested Mynah was normally fairly soft spoken and did not call out at night). An decision not to prosecute for public insult was handed down.

After more than a decade here, Taiwan continues to impart such absurd cultural gems as this. You gotta love it.

Hang on in there Peter - best of luuck with the case (we met at Underworld several weeks back incidentally).

[Puppet]

Can I press charges when people call me fat?

[tempogain]

Do you really want to spend the rest of your life in courtrooms? (If you look anything like me that is)

[Charlie_Phillips]

Bah. Humbug. It’s a Bleak House when you can’t laugh at legal proceedings and how long they take to pass through the courts. It’s worse than a regular bowel movement: Long periods of constipation interspersed by short bursts of verbal diarrhea.

I’d much rather pay the fine then flip the bird again.

[suiyuan31]

@Puppet

Can I press charges when people call me fat?

Yes. But if you’re white, probably not. We’re all fat here…

[saddletramp]

23 pages of this shit, and the executive summary is “Hey Taiwan, GROW A PAIR!!!”

Sorry you got to go through all this shit, Peter.

[Northcoast_Surfer]

Peter,

Here is recent photo you can use. This picture appeared on the front page of the China Post Friday February 25, 2011. The title of the news story was, “ARATS head visits south Taiwan”. Perhaps you can allege “selective prosecution” in your case because there is photographic evidence of the man pictured violating the public insult law, but I see no police officer stomping his guts in and hauling him away for it. So, if the government isn’t going to apply the law evenly, then it’s unjust for them to prosecute you for the same violation of law. Just a thought.

[reefdiver]

@Northcoast_Surfer

Peter,
Here is recent photo you can use. This picture appeared on the front page of the China Post Friday February 25, 2011. The title of the news story was, “ARATS head visits south Taiwan”. Perhaps you can allege “selective prosecution” in your case because there is photographic evidence of the man pictured violating the public insult law, but I see no police officer stomping his guts in and hauling him away for it. So, if the government isn’t going to apply the law evenly, then it’s unjust for them to prosecute you for the same violation of law. Just a thought.

Something tells me that the judge and prosecutors in this case couldn’t give a monkey’s about double standards, they would just laugh it off. Anyway, even in the most civilised of countries there are double standards as regards making insulting comments or gestures at, say, a political rally or football match as opposed to in a one-to-one situation. And look at the Taiwanese politicians with their slanging matches and fist fights, all on camera ! There’s got to be a few laws broken there, surely …

[Northcoast_Surfer]

@reefdiver

@Northcoast_Surfer

Peter,

Here is recent photo you can use. This picture appeared on the front page of the China Post Friday February 25, 2011. The title of the news story was, “ARATS head visits south Taiwan”. Perhaps you can allege “selective prosecution” in your case because there is photographic evidence of the man pictured violating the public insult law, but I see no police officer stomping his guts in and hauling him away for it. So, if the government isn’t going to apply the law evenly, then it’s unjust for them to prosecute you for the same violation of law. Just a thought.

Something tells me that the judge and prosecutors in this case couldn’t give a monkey’s about double standards, they would just laugh it off. Anyway, even in the most civilised of countries there are double standards as regards making insulting comments or gestures at, say, a political rally or football match as opposed to in a one-to-one situation. And look at the Taiwanese politicians with their slanging matches and fist fights, all on camera ! There’s got to be a few laws broken there, surely …

Nope. Taiwanese politicians are not held at a higher standard or even an equal standard and they have immunity from the law. That’s why we have so many gangsters as legislators. They keep getting elected and they can’t be prosecuted.

[reefdiver]

@Northcoast_Surfer

Nope. Taiwanese politicians are not held at a higher standard or even an equal standard and they have immunity from the law. That’s why we have so many gangsters as legislators. They keep getting elected and they can’t be prosecuted.

Could you clarify this- politicians in Taiwan are immune from prosecution ? How, under the constitution ? If they are, then it didn’t stop Chen Shui-Bian being put away for 19 years. And what is your point about gangsters ?

The point I was making is that there are double standards, and that a Taiwanese judge or prosecutor isn’t going to take a photo of guy flipping the bird at a rally and not getting prosecuted for it too seriously.

[Northcoast_Surfer]

@reefdiver

@Northcoast_Surfer

Nope. Taiwanese politicians are not held at a higher standard or even an equal standard and they have immunity from the law. That’s why we have so many gangsters as legislators. They keep getting elected and they can’t be prosecuted.

Could you clarify this- politicians in Taiwan are immune from prosecution?

Sure, I could clarify this, but I need to find an appropriate legal reference to back it up. From what I’ve read numerous times in the China Post and Taipei Times, Taiwanese politicians are immune from prosecution while they are holding their elected positions. Now, I will go find the necessary references and report back later.

@reefdiver

How, under the constitution?

It has to be the constitution if they truly have immunity from prosecution I’ll go find a reference.

@reefdiver

it didn’t stop Chen Shui-Bian being put away for 19 years.

Because he was Ex-President Chen when it finally happened. Nothing short of impeachment was available before he was finished with his term of office. Of course, with so many Green Party legislators, there was never going to be enough votes to have him impeached, then removed from office, and then subsequently prosecuted afterward. Everyone had to wait until his term of President was finished, then they went after him.

@reefdiver

So, And what is your point about gangsters?

Because Taiwanese politicians have immunity, many gangsters run for political office. The news is always reporting that many of our legislators currently have ties to organized crime and or have been convicted of organized criminal activity before or after they were elected to political office. I’ll look for some references.

@reefdiver

The point I was making is that there are double standards, and that a Taiwanese judge or prosecutor isn’t going to take a photo of guy flipping the bird at a rally and not getting prosecuted for it too seriously.

You may be wrong, you may be right. So what if you are right? Peter is trying to fight against his charges, and I’m providing him with a recent picture of someone flipping the bird. Peter solicited us for help in this manner so he could attempt to use them in his favor. That’s all.

I’m not really an expert in politics, so if you know that I’m wrong and you know the right answers, then I would appreciate you setting me straight…with legal references to back it up if you please.

Anyone else out there who can give a definitive answer to me as to whether or not I’m correct?

[Northcoast_Surfer]

Here are some references I found regarding politicians’ immunity from prosecution in Taiwan.

20 page symposium published at Stanford University - Excellent reference. Read all 20 pages, I did, you won’t be disappointed. Check out pages 1~8, but pay particular attention to page 7. This article illustrates how organized crime is so rampant in Taiwanese politics and the immunity from prosecution which Taiwanese politicians enjoy!

http://www.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/papers/taiwan.pdf
How Democratic Is Taiwan? Five Key Challenges for Democratic Development and Consolidation

Here’s an excerpt from a recent Wallstreet Journal article I found.

@The Wallstreet Journal excerpt on 1-25-2011

It’s a fact that the Chen investigation started during Chen’s tenure as President; Chen himself was implicated only after his Presidential term and immunity from prosecution expired. Just because the current Ma administration doesn’t directly respond to the accusations that it is putting its hand in the justice system doesn’t mean these charges deserve credence.

[reefdiver]

Thanks Northcoast Surfer- very interesting. I’ll read this after dinner.

[Flicka]

Apparently you can’t call people childish anymore. Good news for me though–guess I will be real rich soon.

After consulting a dictionary on the English word “childish,” a judge yesterday ordered a university department head to pay her predecessor NT$50,000 for use of the word in describing the plaintiff.
The court ordered Chen Su-chiao (陳淑嬌), chairwoman of the Department of Foreign Languages at National Chia-yi University to pay Su Fu-hsing (蘇復興), the former departmental head, NT$50,000 for defamation after Chen sent a mass e-mail to other departmental staff including retired professors which described Su as “childish” for asking a college dean to resolve a dispute between himself and another professor back in 2008.

Full story here:
https://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2011/03/04/293166/University-department.htm

[Mucha_Man]

I think the idea is you can’t defame someone on such a large scale and not be punished. That said, I would like the bar to be raised a little higher. As Feiren said, this is intellectuals (judges) trying to impose unnatural standards of decorum on the population.

[RobinTaiwan]

I think the article clings to the word “childish” for sensationalism purposes. I suspect the emails contained more than just one “hurtful” word. Typical news article. I highly doubt such a ruling would be made without sufficient evidence that the defendant intended to cause harm.

[bismarck]

@Mucha Man

I think the idea is you can’t defame someone on such a large scale and not be punished. That said, I would like the bar to be raised a little higher. As Feiren said, this is intellectuals (judges) trying to impose unnatural standards of decorum on the population.

I reckon they’re just being childish.

[Charlie_Jack]

@reefdiver

The point I was making is that there are double standards, and that a Taiwanese judge or prosecutor isn’t going to take a photo of guy flipping the bird at a rally and not getting prosecuted for it too seriously.

I’m not trying to debate the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of showing the judge these kinds of pictures, because (1) I don’t know, and (2) it’s none of my business; but in another thread, the OP did ask for these kinds of pictures:

@dearpeter

I’m looking for some photos (or videos) of real, ordinary people in the act of “flipping the bird,” “giving s.b. the finger,” “flipping/flicking s.b. off,” doing the “highway salute,” the “Trudeau salute” (in Canada) or whatever it’s most righteously called.

I want your obscene photos (of a certain sort)

I’m looking for some photos (or videos) of real, ordinary people in the act of “flipping the bird,” “giving s.b. the finger,” “flipping/flicking s.b. off,” doing the “highway salute,” the “Trudeau salute” (in Canada) or whatever it’s most righteously called. Most useful would be pictures of friends using it without being visibly angry. If it’s you or someone you know and are willing to share the identity (ARC numbers anyone?) that would be extra sweet. This, in case you can’t guess, is for my …

I mean, he asked for them, and Northcoast Surfer provided one.

@Flicka

Apparently you can’t call people childish anymore. Good news for me though–guess I will be real rich soon.

After consulting a dictionary on the English word “childish,” a judge yesterday ordered a university department head to pay her predecessor NT$50,000 for use of the word in describing the plaintiff.
The court ordered Chen Su-chiao (陳淑嬌), chairwoman of the Department of Foreign Languages at National Jiayi University to pay Su Fu-hsing (蘇復興), the former departmental head, NT$50,000 for defamation after Chen sent a mass e-mail to other departmental staff including retired professors which described Su as “childish” for asking a college dean to resolve a dispute between himself and another professor back in 2008.

Full story here:
https://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2011/03/04/293166/University-department.htm

Good one. I went looking for more info on that and found what looks like a twelve-page thread (in Chinese) on Taiwan’s defamation law(s), including summaries of some cases. I can’t really figure out what’s going on there, but Google’s translation function gave me some interesting hints: https://www.taiwan.url.tw/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=834&start=165&sid=32b639c4f2e4389619aca0c296cf0265

[reefdiver]

Sure, the OP’s wish to obtain supplementary evidence such as this, for use in court, is correct and normal for someone in his difficult position. Unfortunately this is Taiwan and the evidential standards that you and I would consider as normal and beneficial in the defence of one’s case, simply do not apply. In other words, unsubstantiated opinion, hearsay etc. voiced loudly carry much more weight than a balanced and logical argument, with verifiable evidence to back it up, voiced calmly.

[Charlie_Jack]

@reefdiver

Sure, the OP’s wish to obtain supplementary evidence such as this, for use in court, is correct and normal for someone in his difficult position. Unfortunately this is Taiwan and the evidential standards that you and I would consider as normal and beneficial in the defence of one’s case, simply do not apply. In other words, unsubstantiated opinion, hearsay etc. voiced loudly carry much more weight than a balanced and logical argument, with verifiable evidence to back it up, voiced calmly.

I hear ya. But the OP has decided to contest this thing, and the picture thing is one of the ideas that he’s entertained (don’t know if he’s still entertaining it) in trying to come up with a way to contest it.