Don’t waste your money on a lawyer for a small case like this one. You could try to go to the legal aid foundation and see if they will at least give you some advice. laf.org.tw/laf2010/english/index.php. But you are going to need to persuade them that they should expend precious resources on you.
Just tell your story to the judge and emphasize that there is no way her reputation was damaged
No. Winner and losers pay for their own lawyers in Taiwan.
She probably needed to win the criminal case to win the civil case. Contrary to popular perception, at least some Taiwanese love filing lawsuits. You don’t really need a lawyer and the courts are tolerant, hence abuse.
They just don’t understand western culture.
Fuck you is not defamation of character. Fuck you, you fat 'ol cunt might be in Taiwan, but this whole notion of “character” in Taiwan baffles me. Who the fuck does this woman think she is? She is no one. She will not be able to show any credible amount of damage to her character. This is just too fucking weird for me. I’m going to keep my middle finger tucked away in my pocket.
Good news, dearpeter. I talked to my wife about this matter and she said you’ll probably end up paying 20K. Her advice is to play the foreigner card for all it’s worth and that’s what you’ll end up paying. No way is it going to be 100K unless you really screw up. She said the going rate for saying FYM to someone is about 50K so your indiscretion should come in at less than half that.
25K for giving someone the finger is still a pretty expensive lesson in good deportment though.
And don’t forget to counter-sue after this is all over as the settlement and loss in court have obviously damaged your reputation. Yes, Taiwan’s laws are this screwy. About 10 years back, I started to take my old publisher to trial and was advised by my lawyer that even if I won they could turn around and sue me for damaging their reputation (yes, by proving they were crooks I was damaging their reputation). She said most judges would not hear such a case but she said it wasn’t that hard to find one who would.
Being a non-native English speaker, my first thought on this flipping bird thing was wrong.
I thought he flipped out his “didi”, that he was a flasher hehe.
I have heard the translation into English here in Taiwan for that body part as “bird” several times.
“Giving the finger” is illegal and will result in a hefty fine (something around 300 Euro!),
for sure in Holland and Germany (if they can prove it) and probably other EU countries too.
I too would feel insulted if addressed at me. The same goes for anything that has “fuck” in it.
There are always exceptions of course: “Fuck me?”
“Fuck now?”
If the person asking this is butt ugly than off course I too want to right to sue.
:roflmao:
At the university where I work in HK, I teach an English for law course to legal professionals from the mainland who are here to do a one year masters in which they get a taste of the common law. In every group, there are some judges, prosecutors, and then a bunch of lawyers from various government departments and the PSB. About 1/3 of them are party members. One year there were also two Taiwanese in the group. That year, as sort of a filler discussion, I put together a simple problem question based on the “forget you” public insultment case. The discussion was pretty interesting for me. Every one of the mainlanders argued that the law itself was stupid, and argued this along the same lines that people on F.com have. A judge in the group found the Taiwanese’ judge’s use of her own “professional testimony” regarding “forget you” particularly risible.
The two Taiwanese in the class both felt that the law was reasonable, but couldn’t present a persuasive argument as to why. These two Taiwanese lawyers were in no way high flyers; one was actually a fresh graduate. The mainlanders who do this degree are definitely high flyers in their own legal system. Nevertheless, my estimation of Taiwanese lawyers came down quite a few notches after having taught students from both systems side by side.
JT -
Thanks for your input on this. I have a question that perhaps you can answer regarding the position of “Judge” here on Taiwan.
Is it correct that attaining this position is merely a matter of testing? Not a matter of time on the job or political appointment?
I have heard stories of judges having little to no actual experience as lawyers but who ‘tested into’ the job.
Any light on this?
Thanks.
Taiwanese judges are indeed appointed by examination (as are prosecutors). Many if not most judges are fresh out of college or grad school. Of course they start start out in small claims court or district courts and are assigned easy cases to start with. There are many, many critics in Taiwan of the system. The problem is that no one can figure out a ‘fair’ way to choose judges by other means. The idea that politicians would appoint them or that they would be elected is seen as an extremely dangerous idea (see Legislative Yuan).
Indeed. Many of them are still living at home with mommy and daddy. The idea that they might have the ability to wipe the milk from Mommy’s teat off their lips and actually “judge” anything is… damn! I’m not understanding Taiwanese culture. At all. How the FUCK can these people “judge” anything?
Not that many of the twats doing the judging in the UK are any better, but at least they’re OLD! And you know, MAYBE have at least a tiny, tiny inkling about what happens in the world of grownups…
I suppose the best thing you can say about these children is that nobody – not the legislature, not the cabinet, CERTAINLY not the public, hell, not even the Judicial Yuan – has ANY faith whatsoever in these people. Their “work” is ridiculed pretty much right across the board.
So the GOOD news is, maybe in about 70 years or so, they’ll have devised a better system.
Taiwan, up YOURS!
I don’t get it - why is it that foreigners (I’m from Canada) in a strange country always think the system they are used to is the correct one and the country that they’re in is weird or wrong or unjustified ? Whatever happened to “when in Rome…”
Wake up everyone ! You’re not in Kansas anymore ! If you don’t like it, you are welcome to leave - I’m sure the Taiwanese government nor people will miss you very much.
The law in Taiwan is such that it doesn’t matter what you say or what gesture you make - if the recipient feels insulted, they can have you charged and then sue you in civil court for insultment ! If you yelled SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS at someone, you can be charged and sued if they feel they’ve been insulted. You’ll be asked in court to translate what you said and what you meant by saying it.
This is how Taiwan can remain such a civil place !
My last landlord’s son married recently, and his wifey is training up to be a judge. I would not want to face her in court if she hadn’t had her beauty sleep. She used to regularly get hubby to speak to me about walking around late (10pm-1am) at night in my apartment (they lived on the floor below me in the family house).
Back to point, I’ve never flipped anyone Asia-side the bird, learnt young in life it can cause shit quick.
I have cussed a few out, in Afrikaans. But I avoid it where possible, I prefer the evil eye.
What the hell are you babbling on about? Are you, like 17 years old? My boss would be furious, as would my wife, while my kid would be devastated and my bank manager would likely set Interpol on my mortgage-dodging arse. “Welcome to leave?” Like FUCK I am. Grow up, kid.
It is alive and well. Just this morning, I embezzled NT$750,000 from our company accounts and very nearly severed a scooter-rider’s arm with my watermelon knife after he tried to cut me off in traffic.
Hey, I’m from Canada, too, but I’m not in a strange country, at least not exceptionally strange. In fact, I just realized I’ve lived in Taiwan longer than I have in Canada. And not only have I married a Taiwanese citizen, I’ve also created two of them. MY thoughts about this country are justified and credible. Yours? Maybe not so much… :raspberry:
Seriously though, humans are a species of animal and should be able to conduct themselves according to however they like if you ask me. Besides its a finger gesture. Its not as if someone raped and pillaged a small community. To be honest I’m not sure I would conduct myself according to British law if someone raped or molested my child. A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do and all that…
I always tell my kid that if he gets pissed off with someone for calling him names then he must first examine the complaint. If he’s being called fart breath for example, then he must first ask himself if he has fart breath. If he doesn’t, then he should simply ignore the taunt as it is blatantly incorrect. If he is on the other hand angered by the taunt because he knows it to be true, then he can only be angry towards himself for not taking more care of his dental hygiene.
Taunts about size, colour, shape and such are simply daft as nobody follows a single generic pattern. Finger flipping, arm cranking, wanking motions and the rest are simply gestures. There is no violence or reasonable cause for complaint against such actions as far as I can see.
I’m quite fine with someone calling me all the names under the son whilst flipping and waving all extremities. It doesn’t change anything and it causes me no harm. If it helps relieve someone of their angst towards me, then that’s all the better. Its better to relieve the stress through a harmless activity than many alternatives.
I personally don’t fully understand or should I say appreciate insults for their ability to cause hurt. I don’t know when a word changes from being a simple adjective or noun to becoming a publicly recognised and banned form of insult.
Once upon a time the word negro or nigger was used entirely without pejorative meaning or context. I don’t know who or why it ever became anything else.
Not that long ago we were all happy to be gay. Nowadays the majority of us are just happy and the rest are gay.
The list goes on, but the point being that if there are laws and punishments to prohibit the use and development of language, then how are we to develop?
Must we all abide by a strict and specific set of rules regarding the way we address one another as well as physically contact one another? I agree that basic education should suggest how best to interact to a certain degree as well as teach what is generally socially acceptable amongst a society. I don’t however agree that there should be a law for every type of encounter. I think people generally do a very good job of managing that themselves, especially in cases where no physical contact is even made.
Flipping the bird…Well what if I simply used an adjacent finger? Would that still count? Or what if I bent down to display my buttocks whilst remaining fully clothed? Would that count as a proper insult? What if I threw ghost money in someone’s face? Is there a law against that? What if the ghost money didn’t have gold leaf on it, but silver leaf, or bronze leaf? What if I flipped the bird, but my finger wasn’t fully extended? What If I had lost that particular finger in a band-saw accident, but my stump was slightly protruding? What if I used a prosthetic finger? What if I used someone else’s hand to make the gesture? What if I used a printed picture of the bird flip instead? What if I used the foot of a chicken as a kind of puppet’s hand in order to make the gesture in a slightly less direct sense? What if I used my smart phone to play an excerpt of Top Gun? You know the bit when they are inverted and flipping it to the Russian pilot? Would that be an insult or simply part of a family entertainment movie?
Are there laws about each and every one of these potential forms of insult?
What if I upset a Muslim person in Taiwan, or a Christian, or someone of another faith by doing something like coveting another man’s wife with a pork chop whilst dancing bare foot on the table, to an Elton John tune? Would that be considered an arrestable offence, or would I simply be asked to go home early without my party bag?
This “public insult law” seems insulting to my intelligence to be honest. I think the only thing insulting is the actual need for a law under this stupid title to begin with.
I have actual pity for anyone so weak as to demand protection from another person’s middle finger.
Don’t take that the wrong way…said the vicar to the choir boy.
My boss would be furious, as would my wife, while my kid would be devastated and my bank manager would likely set Interpol on my mortgage-dodging arse. “Welcome to leave?” Like FUCK I am. Grow up, kid.
