QUITE! Go do something useful for a change, sulavaca. Like get that Z4 seller to drop his price to NT$150,000. THEN you shall have my respeck.
(Oh, and Merry Christmas, by the way)
I’m sure I would get lots of respect if I knocked a zero off his price. 
Merry Christmas to you all too.
Ditto. rational thinking is the devils work. Begone with ya
Yes. Filed under: :newbie:
I just checked back to this thread for the first time in weeks because I just came across a related case. But before I get to that, I wish to thank all who took the time to make so many helpful and thoughtful posts. Although there were a few useless posts too, at least one mentioning Kansas, this thread has remained surprisingly relevant throughout. 
Sulavaca’s superb post not far about this one did a great job expressing the same sentiments I feel. Criminalizing a particular gesture (or insults in general) seems to be about the slipperiest (what a fully-looking word!) legal slope I can imagine. The very notion also insults my whole concept of law, rule of law, respect for law, and, of course, human rights. The law brings no significant benefit to Taiwanese society, but it surely has a great cost in terms of chilling effect. The best I can say about it is that is it anachronistic at best. If it has to remain on the books, at least they should amend it to say “unprovoked insult” rather than simply insult. If someone nearly kills me and I cuss them, I’m the criminal and they are the wronged. Give me a break!
Big thanks to Jive Turkey for his postabout how Mainland judges “get it” a lot better than do Taiwanese judges. Somehow, I’m not surprised. (Oops, is that insulting?)
And to the ever-helpful Northcoast Surfer for that link to a PDF containing the full legal history of the gesture. I’ll be using that.
Now, here’s my tiny addition. (I have no case update to report yet. Still waiting for my appeal date.)
Well, I’m not gonna label myself crazy in self-defense, that’s for sure. But isn’t this interesting? I wonder if his gesture will be given any heed considering his actions were so wrong.
Yeah, right. Where do they come up with this shit?
Then, ironically, you can now sue! 
But Peter, you are just a foreigner walking his dog. This guy is a DOCTORAL student!!! WHY! He might one day become a GLORY of TAIWAN! Therefore of course he deserves a bit of slack.
More to the point is that he’s working the system, while you are fighting it. Stray Dog is correct. You should counter-sue.
I got a kick out of this whole post. I always wondered why people didn’t use the bird more often. Anyways you do have a good case for a counter-suit.
The whole situation of taking your picture (on public property) and then dragging you through the courts only to have you un-remorsefully apologize and be the better person in the whole fiasco, thus leading to the appeal, which was likely avoidable, ending up in a civil suit has indeed tarnished your reputation in my opinion. Tsk Tsk Tsk…Shame on you. I’ve lost all respect for you!
PS
I hope it helps your counter suit for slander and defamation of character.
Good luck!
Hey -
Can “we,” as in foreigners here, sue “them”, as in locals, if they flip us off?
There is one guy who gives e the finger at least once a week. I see him acting like an asshat in the morning when I take my son to school. He drives a blue KIA SUV and just bullies the shit out of scooters on the road.
I really get pissed off when he does it and my son sees him do it. He’s probably 55 or so and reasonably well-dressed - not an Ah Huang/Ah Chung character.
Funny thing, he did it to an “Ah Huang” guy one morning and Huang got off his 'scooter and chased the guy…he was also pissed at the way this guy acts on the road way. The SUV guy had been pushing some kids on their bicycles out og the scooter block at the light. Really rude.
Take down his license number and file a complaint at your local police station. Have the wife help you. Get some witnesses if you can.
Edit: In your statement, wax lyrical about how it’s all damaged your son emotionally, caused him to suffer from severe depression and even fear of riding to school. Lay it on thick.
I would not recommend that. Bad idea. Bad, bad idea. What Peter wants to do is try to settle this with the muckraker. I’m sorry if I’m missing something that was written earlier in the thread. I read the thread but it was too long ago. Wasn’t he being filmed when he flipped the bird? The person he did this to wasn’t being offensive, either, if I remember correctly. It was a dispute over a closed road/area. There was no need for Peter to become violent.
sulavaca’s post is excellent. I tell my boy the same thing, only a bit differently. I can only guess what sulavaca would tell his son if he saw him flip it to a stranger. I know my boy would get an ear full. 
Um, my lawyer says we should defend by focusing on the camera and defense aspect, yes, but a countersuit would be unlikely to win, he advises, because she does have a reasonable claim to that land and can easily prove that she felt (at least) that she was on her own land and thus able to photo me with impunity. But this also helps my defense because the charge is public insult and we aim to prove that she can’t have her legal cake and eat it too. That’s what I said too - he two complaints are incompatible - but as I have explained no one seems to care what I think. I now feel I definitely need a Taiwanese lawyer just to get a fair trial.
If I win my appeal, her civil suit collapses. My lawyer won’t guarantee me a win in defense, but he says he can guarantee a win on the suit in the event of my conviction being upheld. Not sure exactly why he feels this way. Maybe because her reputation is already so low and there were so few witnesses (all of whom offer to say they never saw the finger.)
My lawyer is a former judge whose daughter faced the same charge for the same gesture after returning to Taiwan from America where freedom of expression does guarantee you the right to insult others. He says I should have been given a suspended sentence at most; i.e. he agrees the judge was too hard on me and my lack of a lawyer or competent interpreter made me suffer in this respect. I’m lucky this guy happens to be a good friend of my mother in law. He still costs money, but I do feel he’s gonna help me.
Did I mention yet that she lied in court, but the judge didn’t mind in the least? After the hiatus, the judge asked why I didn’t apologize. I said I did. She said she didn’t receive it. I said my wife filmed me giving it to her. Then she suddenly “remembered” and even had read it, but it wasn’t worded to her liking. I asked my lawyer about this. He laughed and said there is no legal requirement of honesty in a Taiwanese courtroom, and the judges actually abide by that principle. I’m sorry, but that is beyond fukced in my brain.
I have new respect for Kafka.
I’m not sure that focusing on the camera aspect will get you far. It doesn’t matter whether it was her private land or public land, she can still take photos of you if she wants. Unless you can claim she was on your land, I don’t see how that will work
I had no idea that honesty didn’t figure. In that case, can’t you just say “I didn’t give her the bird.” cut to film “That’s not me.”
Just deny the whole fucking thing. Lie as much as you can. Fuck 'em.
Then get upset. “What?? That looks NOTHING LIKE ME!!! Are you saying all foreigners look the same?? I can’t believe Taiwanese are so racist!”
:roflmao: Love it! The old racist defense! Good one. Not sure it’ll fly here though.
That’s not true. Perjury is a crime in Taiwan.
Having the right to do something doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right to do it.
Actually, there are limitations. If you insult to the point of slander or libel, or cause mental anguish, the First Amendment won’t protect you.
You’d be surprised…
No they aren’t.
You and your lawyer need to be explained what a public insult is.
It is “her” property, as it turns out. She had every right to ask for your cooperation and she certainly did not deserve to put up with your antics.