I can’t decide which is worse, the “Chinese Nazies” you mention (surely talking with people who have for the most part bad Chinese isn’t going to help your Chinese much, and in fact would probably teach you a bunch of bad habits) or the ones who don’t bother to learn the language at all.
A friend of mine was going on about foreigners speaking Chinese in places like Subway. His argument was that it was an American restaurant, so you should speak English, and to speak Chinese was pretentious, but I almost always speak Chinese in places like that, since the people I am talking to are native Chinese speakers. It’s just about communication. I’ll speak English to a native English speaker, Chinese to most Chinese people, and Taiwanese to cabbies. Whatever works, in other words.
Well, most normal people say hi to people that say Hi to them. Language Nazis? The b@stard without any sense of history, who wrote that will get my full support when (s)he sue his/hers local school board in order to get his/hers school money back. The case should be rather strong, I imagine. (BTW I’m not German).
Most normal people speak what they are most comfortable with. Most people here are most comfortable with Mandarin(I don’t speak Taiwanese).
I speak Mandarin with all Taiwanese, English to my wife, Danish to my kids and German to my bartender.
guess one’s repsonse depends on where he or she was raised. in rural america, the unwritten rule for politeness is “You make eye contact, you smile.” end of story…
IMO many chinese folks dont SMILE until someone smiles at them first even if lengthy eye contact has been made. try it out for yourself, make eye contact and dont smile at all…chances are they wont either…strange huh? however, the rules of politeness arent he same in taiwan now are they…so why judge chinese people by the same standards right? as for the foreigner who runs away to avoid eye contact…run after him, grab his arm and say “Can I make friends with you?”
and then say, get a life (but say that in your head)
You also need to remember that almost all the foreigners here came because they are socially inept at home, so that being confronted by a foreign face on the streets here immediately sends up the defenses in case he or she should be found out for the social misfit he or she is.
Anyway, for all you weirdos who don’t know how to interact on the street, here’s how you do it. If you see a person you know very well, you may lift your left index finger momentarily off your steering wheel or handlebar – careful though – ONLY the index finger and it should be raised no more than about half a centimeter.
Should you be walking and pass someone you know, it is sufficient to raise one eyebrow a millimeter or two. Should the person be a close family member, you may augment this with the vocalization “Aye.”
If your are French or Italian, it is permissible to hug and kiss each other, as long as you are of the same gender.
It’s a bit catch 22. When I first got here, I would nod, or say hi to other foreigners on the street. Then I got the obvious snubs, vacant stares, and occassional “death look” responses, or just obvious discomfort or embarrasment. Not always, but by most. Well I don’t say hello anymore, I though “bugger you, rude b@astards”, and now look away if I see a foreigner on the street, in a supoermarket etc. Now people who would normally give a little greeting will think that I am a rude weirdo who will do almost anything to avoid a social greeting.
I think what it gets down to is do you think you are part of a foreign community here? I do. But it seems that there are so many taiwanese wannabees that shun anything non-Taiwanese, and feel emabarrassed they come from abroad. It’s a shame really, because I like the Taiwanese people, but I also get along well with people I’ve met in the foreign community.
It doesn’t kill you to be friendly. And there is NO excuse for not returning a greeting. To do so is just bad manners.
You are right: “I think what it gets down to is do you think you are part of a foreign community here? I do.”
Foreigners can be divided into two groups, those who feel that are Foreigners with a capital F and belong to a race called the Foreign Race (usually flesh colored, er, white) … and those who do not feel they are Foreigners and do not belong to the Foreigner race (they prefer to think of themselves as human beings who just happen to be living in this country and are not lonely or homesick…).
So between the Foreigners and the foreigners, which one are you?
Not all foreigners are foreigners here, either. Some have adjusted nicely, although I must admit, I still can’t understand this place and feel I can never “belong” here. So I hang out at pubs and bars with mostly foreigner clientele and we bitch and moan. It aint easy being a foreigner in a non-immigrant country like this!
This is a really funny and interesting thread/psychology. Some of the observations like “not saying hello” can be easily applied to Chinese people in England or in a White majority place when they are in the minority.
Suppose you see another Chinese guy in Leeds or liverpool or Glasgow, and you are the only two ( Chinese) in the whole shopping arcade/MacDonalds; chances are you’ll try to ‘ignore’ each other pretending all is “normal” even though all the white kids are staring at both of you expecting I suppose one of you to start speaking Chinese to the other. If the other party is opposite sex, then the chances are even more likely because Chinese women are suppose to be like children - you don’t talk to strangers - unless it is approved by your mom and dad etc… The other guy could well be Vietnamese or Japanese but the kids around you wouldn’t have been able to tell the difference anyway.
The other is the idea of ‘exclusivity’ or “I was here first”, I found this first etc. Say You find a nice, out of the way beach in Thailand, so difficult to travel to, that the last thing you want to see when you arrive is “other people” of your own “class”. Years ago Koh Samua was like that. You only see a few natives working on some boats and practically the whole beach is almost deserted. There are one or two backpackers occassionally that you meet at the local store but that is all and you don’t speak German. They are mostly Germans and not from Hong Kong/Singapore so it is alright. The beach is “unspoilt” until some other rich hongkee with the same ‘exclusive’ mindset discovers your treasure.
Also the third idea is like white people only like comparing themselves with other white folks. It is as if it is “unfair” or even irrelevant to compare to other Chinese people (the majority- who were the underclass at one time ) even if the other Chinese guy went to the same type of university in the US or UK etc. To a certain extent this type of thinking must continue because the majority of their jobs even at “low levels” are still quite ‘exclusive’ to their “colour” and the alternative Chinese candidate would not be able to, or even willing to work for the same pay or salary conditions considering that he/she would often or probably be expected to be fully bi-lingual or even tri-lingual. ie the majority will never treat a ABC or CBC the same way as a whitey. Prejudice or biasedness in this area will always be around.
Putz BTW in an E-C dictionary means:
n.:1. 白癡 (bai chi),傻瓜 ( sha gua)
2. 陰莖 ( ying jing) and also interestingly the verb means to “rub”: vi.1. 磨蹭 ( mou/mo ceng)
Maybe a pinyin expert might like to tell me when is “mou” preferable to “mo”. The pronunciation is nearly or equivalent. I just happen to have my electronic dictionary handy.Nazism in Chinese is translated as a doctrine or philosophy that believe in internal purity: Nei Cui. Since Nazi implies a political party, it also must include “national” purity - rather like the Japanese. So the term nazi is totally inappropriate for white folks who are fanatical about speaking Chinese. There is no purity in that just one-upmanship.
But one thing that would be very impressive for me or all to see, would be for people like Dan,Cranky, Hartzell, and (on the other side) Feiran or Hobart to be arguing about the “implementation of Hanyu Pinyin” on national television. All in Chinese of course. If such a debate can be arranged it would certainly be worth televising. The purity of Taiwan is at stake here or so it seems.
grizzly: LOL! Yeh, just last week I was at a 7-11 in Taoyuan here and a newbie came running over to me inside the store and said “Wow, am I glad to see you! I haven’t seen a white face for a few days!”
I told him – sweetly, altho i wanted to konk him on his newbie head – that
I didn’t know him from Adam so why was he bothering me in the store
I am not white
He looked very puzzled, sad and lonely. And then he slunk off into the afternoon mist…
I reject the idea that all foreigners here are rejects that couldn’t cut it back home.
As for the social awkwardness, from my own experience I can say that I was a little awkward AFTER I had stayed here awhile. There for about a year I taught english, studied chinese and worked out at the gym everyday and that’s about all I had time to do. I very rarely interacted with other foreigners and I was always happy to see another foreign face.
The awkwardness came because every english conversation I had was with a non-native speaker and I was lonely. That can happen pretty easily here.
Drambui, what you fail to recognise is that foreigners in Taiwan, almost without exception, are here temporarily (even if that means several years+). This is in stark contrast to counries like the US, Australia, or just about anywhere where there are immigrants. Here is mono-cultural, and basically all of us are here for a relatively short time (certainly not generations!).
Ok… I just found a contradiction in myself. I’m sure (I hope) that others have had it. In another post I complained that people were always looking at me and paying attention to me. Now I complained that they don’t. Am I NEVER happy??? I guess I’m a bit schizophrenic. Oh well…
My initial reaction to the “Foreigners Syndrome” was as nemesis mentioned. My thought was, in a place where the majority are different, why not acknowledge those that are similar. However, I can understand what has been said about being a Foreigner (big F) and a foreigner (little f).
I kind of think we are both. By very nature of the fact that we are not Taiwanese we are, in essence a community. This would be just like any community of foreigners in the US. Many of us have a natural inclination to seek out those who are like us, who we share a commonality with. When we find those people, we gather. “Birds of a feather flock together” and all that shit!
On the other hand, we are all humans: foreigner and Taiwanese alike. We all need to treat each other with respect, no matter what we look like or where we are from. What is that golden rule? “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
I guess that is why, when someone makes eye contact with me (for whatever reason; no matter who they are), I acknowledge the eye contact – with a smile and/or a nod. It doesn’t matter to me if they smile back. And, usually, it doesn’t go beyond that. That’s fine. I just think it’s rude to purposely ignore someone, for WHATEVER reason.
As for the majority of foreigners coming here because they are socially inept. I disagree with that. Hey, even in two months I’ve seen my share of those people… the one’s you cringe when you see thinking, “No wonder people think foreigners are putzes.” However, I’ve met many who are not putzes, who are nice people, and who came here for reasons other than they were outcasts in their own country.
quote:Originally posted by NFI:
When I first got here, I would nod, or say hi to other foreigners on the street. Then I got the obvious snubs, vacant stares, and occassional "death look" responses, or just obvious discomfort or embarrasment.
Oh, so you are that famous Hogan guy from “Crocodile Dundee”…
Good idea, Juba. (How did this topic EVER morph into a discussion on WWII German politics, anyway?) I guess the point I’ve been trying to make is that we should just try to be a little friendlier to each other; I feel particularly sorry for the poor guy in 7-11; though I never reached out in that manner, he must have been utterly devastated. Would it have been too much trouble to just say hello? Anyhow, I’m not talking about the quasi-Mormon chatterboxes, I’m talking about the ones who clearly see you, and then go out of their ways to pretend they didn’t. I find myself still doing a double take if I see a foreigner (note lack of capital; good distinction, btw) though not in larger centres; just in my little town. And if I’ve singled them out of a crowd unintentionally, shouldn’t I acknowledge them at least? Keep in mind that they probably saw me notice them. And yeah, English is preferable, I guess, but again, it depends on the situation; I’ve never been in a situation wherein I’ve spoken any more Chinese to a foreigner than “dui bu chi”, and that only because I almost tripped over someone in a bookstore; didn’t even see he was foreign until he looked the other way, willing me to disappear. Sorreeee, butthead!
quote:Originally posted by LittleIron:
Besides, I'm not really American; I speak [b]two[/b] languages! [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]
Nemesis, what little town do you live in? Jiayi can’t be that isolated, can it?
You brought up a good topic and the posts have been interesting and useful. But I just want to suggest that maybe if you stay in country a little longer, you will stop doing double takes when you see a 4-in-er. Why the double take?
It seems you are still experiencing culture shock in your small town down south. That’s okay. It takes time. But try this: the next time you see a 4-in-er in your little burg, don’t look at him as a 4-in-er and if he or she is not coming toward you to speak, just let it pass. You still seemt to think you are a member of the race of foreigners. Let it go.
As you acculturate more here, you will find that it is easy to meet and converse with foreigners, but you must first stop seeing them as foreigners. Go with the flow. You are not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy’s big brother! It will happen eventually.
You wrote: "I find myself still doing a double take if I see a foreigner (note lack of capital; good distinction, btw!!!) though not in larger centres [’‘centres’’ spelling is British style or Canadian?] ; just in my little town [WHERE, HOW MANY PEOPLE?]. And if I’ve singled them out of a crowd unintentionally, shouldn’t I acknowledge them at least? [IMHO, No not necessarily, but keep doing whatever you feel is right. Eventually everything will fit into place…]
Oh, I was just playing off the stereotype/generalization that all Americans only speak one language and know nothing of the outside world. Just trying to keep things light (and trying to defend Americans in general in response to some from the US that are perpetuating that stereotype on this thread).
"mood-altering hormones are absorbed through the vagina and make women feel good but they stressed that their results are not an excuse for unprotected sex. "
My plea to dump the nazi stuff seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Can’t you take it off into another forum? This one is about whether or not you should smile at your fellow ethnic minority people when you pass them on the street.
I suppose I’m guilty of this “foreigner syndrome” thing. While I would certainly not change queues or cross the street to avoid another “foreigner” (=“white” person?) I do sometimes feel a teeny tiny discomfort in the close proximity of another “foreigner” I don’t know. I think the main reason is that unless there is a reason to communicate I don’t quite know how I want to handle the interaction. Do I speak Mandarin to him/her? Or English? Or French? Every choice is loaded with assumptions and I’d rather not make any I don’t need to.
Unlike most Taiwanese people I was brought up with a strong aversion to talking about another person’s “race” unnecessarily. It’s a cultural thing, I think. You need a good reason to mention “race” or by your behaviour show that you have noticed the racial difference. I know that in many contexts it’s silly. Along the lines of “Is your friend black?” Answer: “Do you know I’m not sure… I’ll have to ask her!”
It’s part of a broader question: our different attitudes to “race”. The whole “foreigner” thing in Taiwan. For example, I still notice it and feel a tiny bit uncomfortable when a person speaks English to me when they have spoken Mandarin to everybody else in the queue in front of me. I KNOW it’s politeness/helpfulness/English practice… but to me you should pretend not to notice my difference. If you discover that I need special help. Or if I ask for special help, that’s different. But otherwise, to show your awareness of my difference in an explicit way by treating me differently isn’t quite rude but it feels like… how can I describe it… like a hitch… like the needle jumping a groove on an old LP… a tiny kink in the smooth flow of communication.
I know that my reaction is the polar opposite of how many people in Taiwan think. They say “I’d love it if I went into McDonalds in London and someone spontaneously took my order in Mandarin.” Their attitude is probably more rational then mine, I’ll admit. I live here and I’ve got used to things but I can’t help feeling that the language/behaviour you use should be determined by the context unless you have other relevant details and a person’s appearance should not be one of them.
I think the clash (if there is one) comes because I am trying hard to apply the principle “In Taiwan, as far as possible do as the Taiwanese do.” Good manners demand it. But what Taiwanese sometimes do is make “foreign-ness” a determining principle of our interaction. Which can sometimes kind of undercut the whole thing. And then you chance upon another “foreigner”… Oh! What to do?
None of this is serious. But it is a part of the reason why the INITIAL contact with a “stranger-foreigner” is ever so slightly uncomfortable. Does this make sense to anyone else? Or am I on my own here?
And the irony of it all is that in the end I’m thinking like a many Taiwanese do. Ironic or what?
Whatever works, in other words.
