Full body scanners

[quote=“Jaboney”]

[quote=“engerim”]Israel doesn’t use them. They do “people profiling”.

They interview every passenger (especially from Transit) which have to show documents, papers, even emails on their laptop until every single doubt is cleared that their travel is for the purpose that they mention.
Half of the passengers gets their luggage hand checked.
In the West we won’t like this (privacy concerns and shit and pay for a huge scanner instead).
[…]
The US is at war. So they should do it like Israel.[/quote]
Can’t do it. Israel’s effectively a fortress. Those defensive measures don’t scale up.
And the US isn’t at war, no more than there’s a war on drugs, on illiteracy, on poverty. Foolish and misleading rhetoric.[/quote]
The people that still fight (and die) in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan are on a peacekeeping mission? :laughing:
Don’t mix the vegetables. I talk about air security here, not the rest。

I have no problem with them because I have nothing to hide. I trust governments - well, most of them.

I wouldn’t even care if my government tracked me by GPS, tapped my phone and recorded every act of consumerism. It wouldn’t affect my life because, basically, I’m a person of ‘non-interest’ to the police.

No standing in last hour of flight, no access to carry on in final hour. flyertalk.com/forum/delta-sk … ent-4.html

During the last hour of flight no toilet use, no blanket on lap, no access to hand luggage and no possessions held as terrorist attack occurred as plane came in to land. If the attack had occurred mid-way on the flight would these same measures apply, i.e. for one hour in the middle of the flight. How absurd, no wonder attacks occur when so-called security measures like this are dreamed up. newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/complai … 1228090330

What happens if you really need to pee?

Can you fill up an empty bottle sitting down?

Will you get arrested for having a bottle of pee/liquid in your possession in the last hour?

The problem is that the security breaches were human failures not technological ones. There is no clear evidence that more invasive scanners will work. The issue isn’t giving up liberty for security because the assumption that you will be more secure as a result of giving up more liberty is faulty.

As is the assumption that any new powes given to the government will not be abused. A year or so after the Patriot act was passed it came out that most of the information gathered under it was of people were there was no evidence of any threat to national security.

I’m by no means a conspiratory theorist, but one has to draw suspicion at the speed in which the introduction of body scanners has been passed. It is with frightening efficiency that contracts will be signed, scanners bought and staff trained.
Body scanners are not cheap, at over 140,000US a piece. The staff training, contracts, maintenance etc will run into millions over just a few years.

The events on Christmas day were also notably strange. From what I can gleam from collective news articles:

i) The UK refuses to re-admit a Nigerian because he applied to study in the UK at a bogus university. The said individual is also known to have aquaintances with fundamentalist fragments of the Muslim community. The UK tells the US of their suspicions about this individual.

ii) The CIA listens in to telephone conversations in Yemen in August that spoke of “The Nigerian”.

iii) A Nigerian banker goes to the US Embassy and states that his son is in Yemen, receiving training from Muslim maniacs.

iv) A Nigerian, using his own name, a name that was already known to the US and UK authorities, buys a one-way ticket to the US, with cash, and turns up with hand-baggage only.

v) This Nigerian, who has supposedly received training in how to blow up an airliner, then tries to detonate his bomb, not at altitude where it might have succeeded in bringing the airplane down if it had exploded properly, but at low level where the airplane is barely pressurised, thus rendering a successful downing of the airliner unlikely, even if the bomb had worked.

The outcome: The security “industry” receives massive new funding for full-body scanners, huge budget increases for additional staff and untold new powers.

Now call me a cynic, but I really can’t see that if Al Quaeda had trained this Nigerian chap, that he would have been trained such as to detonate a bomb on finals to an airport in a city which is by no means as glamourous as New York, Chicago or any other of many US cities, causing minimal damage - if the aircraft had actually crashed - on an approach path to Detriot which I believe consists of mostly industrial and brown-field sites anyway.

Something clearly doesn’t look right here.

To me now, the risk to me seems not airside, but landside. Now we have queues and queues of passengers lining up in zig-zags in order to pass security control. They are all packed together in a departures building - thousands of them - more than could be put on the planes that were used on 9/11. This is where the danger lies - take out one terminal in any international hub around the world, or several consecutively and you have panic, chaos and unimaginable knock-on effects around the world for weeks, if not months.

Again, this seems to be a knee jerk reaction by our collective governments, or worse still, a pre-planned stunt to make the public conform and accept the neccessity of these expensive, intrusive body scanners in order to make a fast buck. It’s called disaster capitalism - and seeing as the public have been generally opposed to intrusive body scanners ever since their idea was conceived, the powers that be now deem it necessary to introduce them “for your own safety.”

Seeing as a trained sniffer dog, a trained handler and enough Pedigree Chum to last for at least a fortnight would cost less than a tenth of the amount for one new scanner alone to install - and which is far more effctive at sniffing out explosives shoved up ones rectum, it makes you wonder which politicians have connections to which companies within this particular saga. We really do live in an insane world and I can’t believe so many people are falling for this scam.

In short, these body scanners are expensive, intrusive and not nearly as effective as proper passenger profiling and sniffer dogs.
Forget trips to the UK or “The land of the Free.” A stress and hassle free vacation in North Korea sounds just the ticket.

[quote=“Zennor”]
In short, these body scanners are expensive, intrusive and not nearly as effective as proper passenger profiling and sniffer dogs.
Forget trips to the UK or “The land of the Free.” A stress and hassle free vacation in North Korea sounds just the ticket.[/quote]

:bravo: :bravo:

It just sounds to me like such a tremendous opportunity for a jobs program in the security industry at a time when we’ve got 10% unemployment. Israel interviews everyone. Is that way too much to do in the US? Probably, but we can’t do a whole lot more of it?

Everyone’s pointing out the intelligence failures here but it can’t be that all threats have so much advanced warning to them, this one example is probably not representative of what we really need to work on. Fast facial recognition software that checks everyone against a list, and increased person to person interviews to the extent possible. Then you throw the scanners at all bags and people as the technology becomes tested and affordable.

Doesn’t seem like an either-or to me, and blanket scanning of everyone (like random roadblocks on a highway) doesn’t seem discriminatory to me. And because downing a plane kills hundreds, I might argue it is something of an exceptional case w.r.t. to 4th and 5th amendments, kind of like shouting fire in a movie theater endangers a large number of people, and is generally considered an exception to the first amendment right to freedom of speech. Why is scanning of everyone entering a federal building legal?

[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“Dragonbones”]I think the human body is a natural thing, and therefore IMO there’s nothing wrong with nudity, so I don’t see why this should be a concern. It’s like nudist colonies and nude beaches. No big deal. :idunno:[/quote] Save for the element of choice, and the potential for abuse. Both rather big deals.
[/quote]

Well, my comments are really directed at my personal reaction to being asked to undergo such a scan. I certainly understand that some other people will want choice, and some will choose greater privacy, in which case they can go get in the line which involves interviews, more extensive searches, and an extra three hours’ delay. The scanner could be offered as an option which gets you through more quickly, perhaps. Just thinkin’ out loud. :idunno:

I’m not sure, but I don’t think the “last hour” thing is because this particular guy just happened to try it during the last hour. I seem to recall an NPR program where the guest mentioned that the last hour (for international flights entering the US) is the most dangerous because that’s when the terrorists are told to detonate the bombs. Bigger psychological impact if it happens over US soil than over the ocean. You might get lucky and have the burning plane or bits of debris land on populated areas and kill/injure more. Even if you don’t, waiting until the plane is on/near land means better chances of visible wreckage, more TV images, more publicity – which is, ultimately, the whole point. :idunno:

I’m strongly opposed to fully body scanners. However, once I drop another 5 kg I might reconsider.

Britain’s getting them. No debate, either, with those liberal pigs in power.

Well, it’s simple really. Intelligence analytics and organizational issues are tricky to fix, require a lot of work, and take time to show results. Buying a new bit of shiny kit is easy.

Buy a new scanner and declare victory.

I look forward to seeing scanned celebrity bodies on the internet. Nobody wants to see my junk. :discodance: What do I care?

and

It’s obvious that scanners alone are not the solution, but to say that they’re useless seems a little too much. Yes the government’s using the “new scanners” as a propaganda tactic, but that doesn’t mean they’re useless. A lot of these posts talk about how scanners would not have caught this or that person or tactic, that doesn’t mean they won’t help (and haven’t helped) against other attacks. They almost surely have, just because not every confiscation hasn’t reached the papers doesn’t mean they haven’t happened. They’re just not the total solution. Is that what the US and UK are claiming - that scanners are the total solution? I don’t think so, and I bet they are doing plenty of other things that they aren’t talking about (and shouldn’t).

It’s notable to me that the liquid undies would not have been caught by either the machines or the pat down. It seems then that you need the total package in place - machines, dogs, pat-downs and interviews, facial recognition, and pre-flight passenger history checking. Costs a lot of money, takes a lot of people, and most relevantly it takes a lot of time to put in place. I would imagine the best we could do is to keep the pressure on them to not just stop with more scanners, and to get some more disclosure on what internal intelligence improvements they’re making.

In the end, it ends up like the assassination thing - if someone really wants to do it and is willing to die for it, they’re gonna eventually find a way, so the best we can do is to beef up our preparations on all fronts to make it the hardest possible for them to get on board - or near take off/landing: I’m fairly surprised with all of the surplus military weaponry available in the US that someone hasn’t just shot something up yet - there must be a quiet intelligence victory on that front that hasn’t been made public yet.

I get what you are saying, that the terrorists only have to get it right once while our screeners have to get it right every time. The issue is screeners that were hired are largely incompetent. There’s the USA Today article from 2007 about LAX screeners missing 75% of bomb parts when tested and at O’Hare in Chicago they missed 60%. SF screeners, who are contractors instead of TSA employees, had a miss rate of 20% by comparison. The way to fix that isn’t to waste money on a technical solution when it’s a human problem. Use the money to attract talented individuals and train them to a high standard, not buy another expensive machine. It’s not like there isn’t a dearth of Americans with college degrees who are unemployed. When the pay is only 25k to 36k for a screener, you wonder why you have HS dropouts working there.

The technological solutions are expensive, and in this case, aren’t addressing the problem. As you pointed out, neither a pat down nor machine would have caught the explosives (unless you strip searched him), so why is TSA about to purchase these machines? Wouldn’t it be better to spend the money on bomb sniffing dogs, which could have found something amiss about him? Better training for employees or eliminating the DNI and consolidating our 16 + intelligence agencies down to 2 or 3?

The benefit of the full body scanners have to be weighed against the concerns of privacy violation, and in this case it’s a big privacy violation. The scanners can only detect dense objects, like guns, knives and plastic explosives. There are metal detectors that already have that functionality for guns and knives and bomb sniffing dogs for explosives. What is the full body scanner going to be able to do to detect threats that the systems in place can’t do already?

The way I read this article, it is not stating that the technology of the scanners is deficient, it is stating that the screeners using the scanners and doing the checks are missing a lot of things at major airports. Buying more and better scanners is a separate issue, and both need to be addressed. If a scanner can be improved to more easily differentiate between potential explosives and bomb parts, or to better present what it has found to the screeners, that is definitely an improvement. How much of an improvement is worth the extra money spent on it, is a separate issue and requires a more detailed analysis of just how the technical improvements will pay off in reduced miss rates by screeners.

I’d also note that at large airports like O’Hare and LAX, the coincidence of very high volumes of passengers and an insufficient number of scanners and screeners causes very long lines, which in turn causes the screeners themselves to rush more than they would with additional resources, or to pay less attention on an individual basis. So buying more and better scanners, and providing more and better trained screeners, would reduce the individual screening unit load, and increase the quality of the screening overall.

But again, in this article, it is not the quality of the machines here that seem to be the main problem, it’s the screeners. I am in total agreement about getting what you paid for with the screeners themselves.

I disagree that these new scanners as a “big privacy violation”. You are in public, making use of mass transit (private or otherwise), which has recently and constantly been a target for mass murder. This is not in your home or even in your personal car. Yes, the government must be watched for abuses, and must establish its own oversight, but that does not mitigate the government’s responsibility to do what it can to prevent further murders, and being in public by choice in a targeted location means everyone needs to be checked, then so be it. Just like they do federal buildings, just like they do at random checkpoints on the roads. And yes, there is a viewing by a trained screener (again with the training) of outlines of body parts, but no one else sees it - you’re not stripped in public, for example - and personal shyness on one person who can see an outline doesn’t seem like a good enough reason not to use the better scanners if they have enough of a technical benefit.

I have to disagree that it is not a privacy violation, of course it is. Someone you don’t know looking at your naked body is definitely an invasion of privacy. The thing is, these scanners don’t show an “outline”, they show everything…and that’s my problem with them. I have no problem being sniffed by a dog or going through a metal detector or even being patted down (as long as it is by a woman), but a stranger looking at my naked picture and hitting his buddy on the shoulder and saying “Hey, look at the jugs on that chick” really bothers me.

There are other options that could be explored, but aren’t for whatever reason. Personally, I’m in the camp that these are part of government scare tactics more than anything else. A scared public is easier to control.

[quote=“Tiare”]I have to disagree that it is not a privacy violation, of course it is. Someone you don’t know looking at your naked body is definitely an invasion of privacy. The thing is, these scanners don’t show an “outline”, they show everything…and that’s my problem with them. I have no problem being sniffed by a dog or going through a metal detector or even being patted down (as long as it is by a woman), but a stranger looking at my naked picture and hitting his buddy on the shoulder and saying “Hey, look at the jugs on that chick” really bothers me.

There are other options that could be explored, but aren’t for whatever reason. Personally, I’m in the camp that these are part of government scare tactics more than anything else. A scared public is easier to control.[/quote]

I didn’t disagree that they are an infringement of privacy, I stated that it is not a “big violation of privacy”. I don’t think it’s a “violation” because to me that term is loaded: it implies something illegal right off the bat (a “small invasion of privacy” is still an invasion), and for the reasons I noted in my post, I don’t believe it should be considered illegal in a public area using a mass transit system that has been targeted.

The pictures are detailed in the outlines, but you can’t see faces (I think the scanners obscure them) and most other details. Yes you will see breastesses, dongs, and booty, but how else you gonna know if something’s hidden there? Dogs don’t get them all and this type of scan is better than a pat-down in those regions (for most people). They could probably put some SW in to blur the outlines a little without compromising the results… Also, the screeners themselves could be in another room, so there’d be no way to leer at the actual person, no visual contact whatsoever. You think they don’t already do this? Ever seen those quarantine scanners in TPE or BKK or HKG? You think they don’t have those elsewhere with better detail already?

Of course there is the potential for vulgar abuses, but that’s why the screeners must have oversight, and any of those type remarks should result in immediate dismissal. In the current system, I don’t see a whole lot of the pat-down security guards making comments like “nice jugs” or leering, and they’re actually coming into contact with us. I’m not saying vulgarities wouldn’t happen, I’m saying that the occasional idiot isn’t cause to dismiss the concept.

I also agree the government has a penchant for scare tactics to get their way - even the Obama administration (though hopefully much less than the W years). But I don’t see the scanners as being part of the scare tactic - if anything, they are partially covering up the other real problems by giving a false sense of security, not scaring people further.

BTW the Dutch claim to have overcome any privacy problems:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BR22120091228

They use a little different technology that gives the outline but not the obvious sex of the individual being scanned.