I think a lgbt forum would be great. However, I would take issue with calling it “Queer Salon.” I know that words like “queer” and “fag” have been embraced by many in the gay community, taking what was once a derogatory remark and making it “our own.” However, I’m sure I’m not the only gay man who does not like either term. I’d much prefer to use something more simple (and, yes, boring) as the “LGBT Forum.”
Also, I think that, by avoiding terms like “queer” and “fag,” we may attract a wider range of people both gay and straight. My thinking behind this harkens back to my own time growing up. When I was a teenager the only gays I knew (of) were those that fit the feminine stereotype of gay men. And though fine for others, that is not how I saw myself or the type of person I wanted to be. So, for the longest time I avoided thinking of myself as gay because I did not want to “associate” myself with those stereotypes.
If there are gay men or lesbians out there who are still struggling with their sexuality – whether to accept it or not, etc… The use of the terms such as “queer” in the title of the forum may “turn the off.” As I mentioned in my previous post, there is such a wide diversity of people that make up the gay community. We should find the best way to reflect that in the title of the forum.
I agree. I’m uncomfortable with the words “queer” and “fag” and I don’t use them to refer to gay people. IMHO, using the word “queer” in these threads is like having a black thread and calling it “n----r news”. I would find that very offensive.
Well, it depends on how close you are to ‘fags’ and ‘queers’, or if you are one.
And I thought BFM was naive…
Cut the semantics, Tigerboy, and save your devil’s advocacy for your own forum.
Sure, Quiet Mountain, while I think “Queer Salon” is cool and literary, I can see that it could put some people off. Something like “LGBT Salon” might be more apropros, as you suggest.
And just to clarify a point about the whole defining yourself by your gayness debate, and to get away from this
That’s nonsense. I have several close black friends and my oldest and best friend is a Jew. I don’t refer to them as “n----rs” and “k—s”, and they don’t refer to me as “cracker”. I have had gay friends and I am fairly well acquainted with two gay fellas here in Taiwan. I don’t even jokingly refer to them as “queers” or “fags”.
This has nothing to do with how close I am to them or whether I am naive. Its a personal preference for certain terms and a matter, IMO, of respect. I’m not at all saying that people who use those tems are necessarily disrespectful… but we can all show our respect in different ways. Wouldn’t you agree?
I think semantics are important, sometimes. And playing the devil’s advocate is the way I think, frequently. It can be a very useful method in gaining different perspectives. You should try it sometime.
Tigerman: I think maybe what Alien means is that these days, most gay people don’t consider “queer” to be an insult; obviously a few still do. There’s a whole swathe of very boring “queer theory” that even I don’t want to go into, but I think many would agree that “fag” is more insulting (certainly to me, as it’s a US export!) and queer is kind of OK and maybe even a little ironic in most situations. But everybody will have an opinion. I think that’s why QM suggested the forum name should be neutral (ie. dull!)
And anyway, take your catfight to the “Het Salon” if you don’t mind!
[quote=“tigerman”]
That’s nonsense. I have several close black friends and my oldest and best friend is a Jew. I don’t refer to them as “n----rs” and “k—s”, and they don’t refer to me as “cracker”.[/quote]
Do you really find the term ‘cracker’ offensive? I never have. PWT is far more derogatory where I come from. And that, of course, never would apply to me.
I could go on about what I do find offensive, but since that kind of schlock tends to go on and on here on this website without a blink, waddiyagonnado?
Well, as an exalted “fag hag” since before Little Buddha was born as a biological homosexual, I guess I don’t have too much trouble with the term. Nor do the fags I associate with.
Sticks and stones, you know. Its not the words by themselves that I find offensive. Its all the baggage that comes with those words that rub me the wrong way. Are we really trying to arrive at a point in time and space where we can look at each other and simply see each other as fellow human beings that just happen to have different interests and or orientations? Or do we want to continue to define ourselves and others as something different and then erect barriers around and between us? Language can be a very effective bridge… but it can also be a barrier. Certainly all of us living here know that all too well.
I think the problems associated with racism, sexism and orientationism (is that a word?) are some of the most important issues facing us as nation states and as an international community. While I think I can understand why the term “Pride” might have been appropriate in the past, I also think that the gay movement has made advances (as have the majority population as regards its views and perceptions of gays)sufficient to enable us all to start working on getting more integrated.
Words that originally had derogatory conotations, such as “n----r” and “queer” do not, IMO, bring us all together. Rather, they tend to shut some people out. How many black people would accept me into their circle (other than to beat the snot out of me) if I were to use the word “n----r” with them? I understand that many homosexuals may not regard the word “queer” as offensive. But the fact remains, some do. As do some heterosexual people.
Keep on truckin’ on! That is, maintain the dialogue (I sound like a liberal and erecting barriers too ) and keep tryin’ to make people understand. And keep tryin’ to understand things myself. As the Dead used to sing… “I just want to find out, what’s right and what’s wrong”…
Good. For you. But as was pointed out by someone else here (that means I’m not the only fuddy duddy), there are others who might not feel so at ease and they might be less reluctant to participate as a result… is that what is desired?
It’s all in how you say it. Maybe we could put an inverted exclamation mark before it, to let everyone know it should be blurted excitedly when said: !Queer! Salon.
(sorry no inverted exclamation marks on my keyboard).
Seriously though. I never gave a flying F about trailer trash until somebody came up and used it angrily toward me. Its interesting how quickly a word can take on a whole new meaning when it is said in a different way.
Also, I think its up to the community or group itself to decide which words are appropriate and which are not. While I cannot say n----r, it certainly is appropriate for many black people to use it. Same goes with fag and queer. I’d have to agree with Magnolia–fag really raises the hairs on the back of my neck, but not because it’s an American export. It reminds me of the taunts from my childhood. NOT PLEASANT. As for queer on the other hand… aside from a couple rounds of “Smear the Queer” in my backyard (long before any of us knew what a queer was) I don’t think I’ve ever heard it used as a slur. In fact, I don’t believe I’ve really ever heard it used when it was not paired with “theory”.
But whatever. If it is divisive, then drop it. How about Pink Martini Salon?
Thanks for posting the link to that article about the word “queer.” It was really interesting. I’m not 40 or over, but I’m still not quite comfortable with using that word. Though, I think I find it less of a problem then “fag.” Probably because “fag” and “faggot” were more often used as slurs where I grew up.
“Queer,” to me, still holds the connotation of being “strange” or “odd.” Which is why I probably don’t like it that much. I don’t think of myself as odd or strange. Well, at least not for liking men instead of women. In other ways, yes, I am little strange. But, not in the ways you probably think.
Thanks for posting the link to that article about the word “queer.” It was really interesting. I’m not 40 or over, but I’m still not quite comfortable with using that word. Though, I think I find it less of a problem then “fag.” Probably because “fag” and “faggot” were more often used as slurs where I grew up.
“Queer,” to me, still holds the connotation of being “strange” or “odd.” Which is why I probably don’t like it that much. I don’t think of myself as odd or strange. Well, at least not for liking men instead of women. In other ways, yes, I am little strange. But, not in the ways you probably think. [/quote]
Well then can anyone can explain to me what “Queer as Folk” is supposed to mean? Why didn’t they just call it “Queer People”?
My college roommate’s mom was a lesbian and his brother was bi. His sister was straight, but she was adopted. Incidentally, his last name was Lovelady.
My sisters are straight, and my teenage brother seems to be showing a mega-infatuation with Ralph Lauren clothes and Cuban cigars, but not much in sports and only slight interest in girls. I am not sure if that is what teens are like these days or not. What’s your take, Magnolia?
Oh, yes. There’s just the two of us, and my sister is a luscious lesbian. She’s a prison officer (did her avid watching of Prisoner Cell Block H press the lesbian button ), and her wife is a police officer. Lesbians in authority, ouch!
I think lesbian is a lovely word that really rolls around the mouth. The best we males have is “homosexual” which clearly sounds like a disease.
If some people don’t object to being called “poof” maybe we should call this “Poofter’s Palace” ? Even if others do object ? What about “Homo’s Home” ? Can be seen to be normal people just like the rest of us with something understandable like “Gay/Lesbian Issues” now can we ?
Not quite sure what the topic is in here, but if you want to start a new one, please make a new thread. (“No need for a gay forum, they only wanted one thread”) This one is getting a bit long (As the actress said to the bishop) I could split them, but it’s really buggers things up when you change topic in the middle of a post
Don’t know anything about teens these days either, Flicka (though they’re getting cuter the older I get :shock: ) but your bro sounds like a classic metrosexual, if there is such a thing! I met a SCREAMING “metro” on Penghu in the summer, a US serviceman from NY, who claimed to have more pairs of designer shoes than any Manhattan queen - I watched him practically screw a hooker in a KTV parlor, so he WAS straight! You meet really weird people on the islands…
CQ: I thought MY sister and her friends were scary (even my Irish laborer father though the women’s football team were “coarse”) but yours? Jeez! Tell me she DOESN’T look like Joan Ferguson, please!
) and keep tryin’ to make people understand. And keep tryin’ to understand things myself. As the Dead used to sing… “I just want to find out, what’s right and what’s wrong”…
But, not in the ways you probably think.