O’Brian, you are making the usual error of thinking that all or most of the people involved in the demonstrations were students. Actually, none of the people that I know personally who were involved were university students, but one was a high school student. I did bump into Uerkesh Daolet (“Wuerkaixi”) here in Taibei, but I wouldn’t claim to know him, and anyway, he was not in Tiananmen Square on 4 June.
Yes, hard to imagine there were 1 million university students in Beijing at the time. Correspondents from the Independent newspaper (Andrew Higgins and Michael Fathers) wrote an interesting book on the subject called I think Tiananmen: the Rape of Peking, giving their eye-witness accounts. It would appear that the vast majority of the protestors were laobaixing, and that the students involved were by and large intellectual snobs - LiLu’s book reinforced that view in my mind, the book being an attempt by LiLu to exaggerate his own importance.
I subsequently brought all my Tiananmen books to China afterwards and everyone who read them was genuinely surprised. I was surprised that the CCP manipulation of the media had been so successful. I had hitherto believed that mainlanders knew the truth but preferred not to dwell upon it. I then realised that few knew the truth at all.
So O’Brien, Engels was indeed a Nazi monster and he’s a German, so all Germans are Nazi monsters. OK. I’m following your logic so far.
So who tried and sentenced him in Hamburg? Hamburg’s in … Germany, isn’t it? So its logical to assume that he was tried and sentenced by … German Nazi monsters! Now, why would they do that? You’ve lost me.
Okay, let’s start a new thread: Truth and reconcilliation commitee on Tiananmen.
Ask Wuerkaishi and Tsai Ling if they really wanted freedom or just better jobs they couldn’t get due to corruption?
Interview PLA solders:"Did you know you were shooting students, street vendors, or just the common masses? Or was it just self-defense?
Juba: Sorry I can’t help you with early 1970’s photos of Oakland and the Black Panthers, but the article was interesting. You did read it didn’t you? So what’s your point? Chinese were as oppressed as Blacks in the United States 30 years ago?
This picture was taken off an indie punk zine site called cool beans with free mp3 (MP3s) based in San Francisco. More of your haphazard use of sources or a regular site for you?
Riots are riots. Good luck trying to sort it out. The dead don’t care if they were students or workers or street vendors or soldiers.
How wonderfully appropo: …
Thanks for proving the point that Germans indeed do care about their history and try to put things right (as far as this is still possible).
I can only assume you just hate Germans (including those born after WWII) for whatever reason or you just try to stir things up “for fun”.
But since there is no reasoning with you either quote meaningless reports or rip claims out of context any further discussion (or the attempt thereof from our side) with you seems pretty useless, thus I won’t react to any of your comments in future.
Just in case anybody thinks I was making that up, a mutual aquaintance has reminded me of the photographer’s name - Bob Gannon. Note the following passage from an introduction he wrote to an exhibition of his photographs:
Just to make it crystal clear - Bob Gannon witnessed the killing of not one, but several soldiers by the crowd - and the time sequence of his account is that soldiers got killed first, then civilians.
Source:
Ten Days in Tiananmen Square
quote:
Originally posted by Juba:Just to make it crystal clear - Bob Gannon witnessed the killing of not one, but several soldiers by the crowd - and the time sequence of his account is that soldiers got killed first, then civilians.
Source:
Ten Days in Tiananmen Square
OH NO!!! Communist Chinese soldiers were killed by the Chinese people??? Please say it’s not so! Who would want to hurt those erstwhile “Heroes of the Revolution”???
Please excuse me while I go outside and puke.
OK, O’Brien. Now we know that you regard lynching as a normal and understandable act. Any further comments from you will be better understood in this light.
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Originally posted by Juba: OK, O'Brien. Now we know that you regard lynching as a normal and understandable act. Any further comments from you will be better understood in this light.
You consider the rightful extermination of the tools of the Communist Party to be the same as “lynching”??
Gee, to bad East Germany fell…you would have had bright career as a Kommissar in the Border Guards. Oh well…you could always try North Korea!
Wow. I just thought you saw lynching as normal and understandable. I didn’t go so far as to say “rightful,” but you have said it yourself - with a smiley to show how amusing you find it. Be careful - You are the one who keeps making anti-German diatribes, but the language you are using is getting uncomfortably close to that of Heinrich Himmler. Rightful extermination = richtige Vernichtung
Juba, can you give us an estimate of how many millions of Chinese have been murdered by the Chinese Communist regime?* How is it that you have so much sympathy for the oppressors and none for the victims???
:confused
- According to R.J. Rummel, between 1959 and 1961, the Chinese Communists killed approximately 27,000,000. I guess they learned alot from the 3rd Reich.
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Originally posted by O'Brian in another thread: ...a bunch of men wearing faggoty shorts...
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Originally posted by O'Brian in another thread: I've read that the ancient Celts hung queers.....
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Originally posted by O'Brian: Juba, do the Communist Chinese pay you to bend over for them or do you do it for free?
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Originally posted by O'Brian: rightful extermination... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] (O'Brian's smiley, not mine)
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From Heinrich Himmler in a statement he made to Felix Kersten in 1940: The homosexuals must be entirely eliminated.
Juba, I don’t care if you’re homosexual.
Perhaps in the heat of things, people are forgetting that this is not the Open Forum. (And even in Angst’s territory there are limits.)
Let’s keep things here focused on ideas and not let matters get out of hand.
–the moderator
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Originally posted by O'Brian: OH NO!!!! Communist Chinese soldiers were killed by the Chinese people!?!? Please say it's not so! Who would want to hurt those erstwhile "Heroes of the Revolution"???Please excuse me while I go outside and puke.
O’Brian has to be the defunct Mai LongDong. No one else on this forum has demonstrated this type of ability to draw twisted conclusions from history and sneer with revolting sense of humor.
Is he baiting or is he for real?
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Originally posted by Urbanjet in another thread:I lived in HK for a year and spent 5 months in Taipei.
Ahhh. Our resident Oriental (excuse me, what is it, Asian/AA/ABC/CBS/NBC???) expert…
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Originally posted by Flipper: when asked to supply alternatives which are more objective, you send us to a geocities site thrown together by a college student in china and the china news digest site.
I am the one Flipper referred as “a college student in china”. I came here becasue today I happened to check my own webpage and found Juba left a link at my guest book. To clarify it, I participated the “riot” and fled China in Sept. 1989. I went to graguate school in the east coast of US and after that settled down in San Francisco, Bay Area. The page was put up in the early nineties. The photos (including civilians being rescued) were taken by my friend Dong Lin, who also now work in the San Francisco, Bay Area. But the negatives was smuggled out of China by a New York Times reporter before Dong came to the states. Both Dong and I are strongly against the killing action of the goverment against the civilians and the students. I have friends who work for China News Digest. China News Digest was founded by a bunch of guys also against of the Chinese government such actions.
However, it is true that soldiers were also killed during the “riot” without due process. But until today, I haven’t been convinced by any evidence that soldiers were killed before any single civilians were wounded or killed in that bloody day. Even it is true, it doesn’t justify the government’s action to order its own army to shoot aimlessly to the civilians and students on the streets.
I hope I have made myself clear. I went through
the effort of registering myself to be able to write down these words just not want to be viewed as a Chinese government defender on this matter. Now you gentlemen/ladies can continue on whatever you were arguing about.
For the curious - Zhang Haiyang’s home page is here and photographs by his friend Dong Lin are listed here.
The name of the dead soldier pictured on Haiyang’s we site was Liu Guogeng 劉國庚. He was isolated from his unit and beaten by crowds at Liubukou at around 4 a.m. on June 4. After beating and burning, he finally died at around 5.30 a.m. The first photograph of Liu’s body was taken by Wang Jianmin of the Xinhua News Agency at 6.20 a.m. Liu’s corpse was disembowelled by someone called Zhang Jianzhong on the evening of June 5.
Other soldiers killed in the conflict were: Wang Quifu 王其福, Li Qiang 李強, Du Huaiqing 杜懷慶, Li Dongguo 李棟國, Wang Xiaobing 王小兵, Xu Rujun 徐如軍, Cui Guozheng 崔國政, Ma Guoxuan 馬國選 and Wang Jinwei 王錦偉. (Source)
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Originally posted by Olaf: But while we talk about borders: I heard rumors there is some kind of border between the US and a country called "Mexico". You don't have guards there, right? And even if, they would never carry any firearms. And even if, they would never dare to use those firearms - never ever...
Are you SERIOUSLY comparing the US-Mexican border with the Berlin Wall??? Have you actually been to said border? Outside of a couple of cities, the only sign is couple of rusty strains of barbed wire. There are no guard towers with murderous guards, mine fields or attack dogs. Talk about something you know about.
And regarding the US Border Patrol, sorry. They don’t murder anyone trying to escape America.
Why don’t you read this VERY interesting report on border conditions:
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Mexican soldiers in border crossings By Steve Miller THE WASHINGTON TIMESHeavily armed Mexican soldiers and police are crossing the U.S. border repeatedly, provoking charges from Capitol Hill that they are providing cover for drug smugglers and illegal immigrants.
Last year, there were 23 incursions documented by the U.S. Border Patrol, prompting Rep. Tom Tancredo to contact Mexican President Vicente Fox last week, asking for an end to these incidents.
The Mexican government denies Mr. Tancredo’s accusation and maintains that Mexican military forces are working the same area as U.S. Border Patrol agents in fighting the illegal transport of drugs and people into this country.
read the full story here
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Originally posted by O'Brian: Are you SERIOUSLY comparing the US-Mexican border with the Berlin Wall????? Have you actually been to said border? Outside of a couple of cities, the only sign is couple of rusty strains of barbed wire. There are no guard towers with murderous guards, mine fields or attack dogs. Talk about something you know about.
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Originally posted by O'Brian in another thread: Well, I hear tell Texans prefer to shoot at cans: MexiCANS.
You mean they let the Mexicans cross the border first and shoot them later?