German tendency to sidle their past?

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]

1950 to 1990: North Korea was backed by a communist nuclear power and was included in that country’s nuclear umbrella.
196- to present: North Korea has had enough rocket and artillery delivered chemical and biological weapons within range of Seoul to kill every man, woman and child in that city within the first 15 minutes of war breaking out.

Are you suggesting that the US engage in a war that has an absolute minimum price of sacrificing Seoul’s 10 million? I think you’ll be hard pressed to prove that US action in former Yugoslavia or in Iraq has caused the deaths of 10 million people.[/quote]

North Vietnam’s ally during the Viet Nam War was the Soviet Union. Despite that, the U.S. carried on an extensive bombing campaign of North Viet Nam spanning several years.

Iraq was supposed to have had extensive chemical and biological weapons and unknown nuclear capability and the ability to deliver them via SCUD and drone, causing extensive casualties if unleashed, not to mention the ability to shut down much of the world’s oil production – but that didn’t stop anyone.

What I’m suggesting at this point is that if nothing at all is done about North Korea – which is the current U.S. policy – it’s most likely going to embody all the worst fears that were envisioned about Iraq in the not too distant future.

That and the fact that everything Bush Administration supporters have said about Iraq was empty rhetoric meant to camouflauge their true motives and goals.

Which are?

I’ll bet Gunther Grass would have a field day with this…

[quote]DRESDEN, Germany, Feb. 13 – Thousands of neo-Nazis and skinheads marched through the heart of this meticulously restored city Sunday to protest its incendiary destruction by Allied forces 60 years ago, the biggest effort yet by fringe groups to portray Germans as equal victims of World War II. The demonstration was among the largest gatherings of Nazi sympathizers in Germany since the end of the war and overshadowed Dresden’s official commemoration of the city’s virtual annihilation by British and U.S. bombers on Feb. 13 and 14, 1945.
Nazi symbols and public denial of the Holocaust are prohibited by law in Germany. But the government has reported a substantial increase in the past two years in the number of hard-core Nazis and their sympathizers. The trend has been fueled partly by the highest unemployment rates in Germany since the 1940s, anti-foreigner sentiment and a general dissatisfaction with mainstream politics. Last September, the National Democrats, a far-right political party that attracts support from neo-Nazis, won more than 9 percent of the vote in Saxony, the southeastern German state of which Dresden is the capital. Since then, they have forged an alliance with other groups in a bid to win representation in the federal parliament.

Emboldened by their electoral success, the National Democrats have courted controversy in recent weeks by arguing that the degree of German suffering during the end of World War II has been unfairly repressed or minimized. Last month, party leaders walked out of a ceremony marking the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp, complaining that the Holocaust was being overemphasized at the expense of the bombing victims in Dresden.

There is a myth, the myth of the innocent Dresden,” said Gerhard Besier, director of the Hannah Arendt Institute for Totalitarian Research, a political think tank in Dresden that studies extremist groups. “People don’t realize that the Nazis had been very strong in Dresden and in Saxony. They insist that the population of Dresden was innocent and was murdered, and that this bombing didn’t make any sense.” [/quote]

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar … Feb13.html

Iraq was invaded and occupied because a group of people with a passionate attachment to Israel who labeled themselves ‘neoconservatives’ came to power after the trauma of 9/11 with a primary foreign policy goal to, as the architect of the invasion, Paul Wolfowitz, wrote in 1998:

“liberate ourselves, our friends and allies in the region, and the Iraqi people themselves, from the menace of Saddam Hussein.”

Fundamental to securing this goal long-term was the establishment of a permanent U.S. military presence in Iraq. That’s why the Bush Administration is so coy about saying when it will leave Iraq. It has no intention whatsoever of removing the fourteen military bases it’s established largely under the radar of public awareness because that was a fundamental goal of the invasion.

Stories of weapons of mass destruction, collusion with Al Queda, concern for the welfare of the Iraqi people were all manufactured because the American people would never have bought the true goals of the neoconservatives – and they knew it. Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz once again: “The truth is that for reasons that have a lot to do with the U.S. government bureaucracy we settled on the one issue that everyone could agree on which was weapons of mass destruction as the core reason.”

If I’m wrong that neoconservatives don’t have Israel’s welfare as a primary goal of U.S. foreign policy then the U.S. will withdraw it’s troops from Iraq in 2006 or 2007 when asked and the U.S. won’t attack Iran’s nuclear power facilities this year if Iran refuses to abandon it’s nuclear energy program.

Spook:

Your comments are hardly relevant to this thread surely. Second, guess what? No one is trying to “fool” you. I told you two years ago that I wanted permanent bases in Iraq. So? What’s the problem? You think that a commitment to Iraq would be different from our commitment to Turkey, Germany, South Korea, Japan, Italy etc. how exactly? Why are these bases a bad thing? Why is a long-term commitment to help Iraq develop democratic and civil institutions wrong? Where is the big conspiracy?

Incidentally, how does this grab your Jew obsessing mind?

[quote]Does Israel Belong in the EU and NATO?

By Ronald D. Asmus and Bruce P. Jackson
Ronald D. Asmus is executive director of the German Marshall Fund of the United States

[quote=“fred smith”]Spook:

Your comments are hardly relevant to this thread surely. Second, guess what? No one is trying to “fool” you. I told you two years ago that I wanted permanent bases in Iraq. So? What’s the problem? You think that a commitment to Iraq would be different from our commitment to Turkey, Germany, South Korea, Japan, Italy etc. how exactly? Why are these bases a bad thing? Why is a long-term commitment to help Iraq develop democratic and civil institutions wrong? Where is the big conspiracy?

Incidentally, how does this grab your Jew obsessing mind?[/quote]

I was responding to Comrade Stalin’s direct question to me in this thread, just as I’m now responding to your comments to me:

[color=blue]"Personal Attacks, Civility, and Respect
The administrators of Forumosa are working to provide a place where foreigners living in or interested in Taiwan can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Despite our best efforts, some posters stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else. Unfortunately, it is simply impossible to write a comprehensive set of rules forbidding every type of antisocial behavior. The fact that the rules don’t forbid a certain type of post does not automatically make an uncivil post appropriate, nor does it imply that the administrators approve of disrespectful behavior. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster a community atmosphere where thoughtful discussion is valued. In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden.

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board. Do not distort another poster’s name for the purpose of insulting or ridiculing him/her.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, “your facts are wrong,” but it is not appropriate to say “you are a liar.” [/color]

My view is that supporters of Israel in the U.S. inappropriately drive U.S. foreign policy. It’s an opinion that can be supported by factual references. If it’s wrong, then it should be refuted with arguments and facts, not dismissed with mere personal insults. If the U.S. attacks Iran this year if it refuses to halt its nuclear energy program and continues to do next to nothing about the greater threat to U.S. security of North Korea, then the argument will only grow stronger that U.S. priorities are skewed:

“In the wake of Iran’s nearly 20 years of secret development of nuclear weapons and ongoing efforts to undermine the work of U.N. arms inspectors, Congress has passed legislation aimed at halting Tehran’s nuclear program. The Senate unanimously passed a resolution condemning Iran’s failure to adhere to International Atomic Energy Agency agreements and continuing efforts to develop a nuclear capability. This resolution (S. Con. Res. 81), introduced by Sens. Jon Kyl (R-AZ), Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), Richard Lugar (R-IN), and Joseph Biden (D-DE), urges the U.N. Security Council “to address the threat to international peace and security posed by Iran’s nuclear weapons program and take such action as may be necessary.” Earlier this year, the House passed similar legislation calling upon signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, including the United States, to use all appropriate means to deter, dissuade, and prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. Thank your Senators and House members for supporting these resolutions.”

aipac.com/Action1.cfm

Spook:

I am so confused by your positions.

  1. You said the invasion of Iraq was a mistake because Iraq was not a threat? How and when did you know this?

  2. You think that North Korea is a more serious threat. Fine. You want to invade? Take out the sites? How do you KNOW that these weapons exist?

  3. Are you now saying that Iran has such weapons? How do you know? Should they be taken out? Do you support this? or are you suggesting that our actions in Iran like Iraq will be made primarily with Israel’s not America’s interests in mind?

  4. Do you think that permanent bases in Iraq would be a bad thing?

  5. Do you think that the US is trying to control Iraq for its own personal interests? And are those interests necessarily imicable to those of Iraqis themselves?

  6. What kind of influence do you think that Jews and Israelis have over American foreign policy and how in your opinion is it inimical to American interests? Does Israel attempt to influence US foreign policy in ways that other nations do not? How acceptable is it for Israel to try to lobby the US govt on behalf of its interests? Is it admirable that France can punch above its weight by getting more than it would normally deserve, but evil of Israel to do the same because it suggests a Zionist Jewish conspiracy? Do Jews make less loyal citizens of the US than say French? Chinese? Indian? German? Mexican?

  7. How in the name of God does any of this have to do with Germans being unwilling to face up to their history or whether they are unaware that their malignant dogmatic militant idealism may be sprouting in ways that are equally bad as similar manifestations in the past?

For fred:

[color=olive]Dresden’s remembrance against Nazis[/color]

Commemoration of bombing night 1945 / Thousands protest against extrem right demonstration

Dresden (ND/Agenturen). Ten-thousands of Dresden’s population remembered the destruction of their city 60 years ago and set a sign against right-wing extremism.
5000 Neo-Nazis from all over Germany demonstrated in the city of Dresden under massive protection by police and - without pointing out Germany’s fault of [starting] WWII - denounced “allied war crimes”.
15000 people of the ‘Elbestadt’ protested with white roses and candles against such a reinterpretation of history during a [counter] demonstration.
At the end lit-up candles wrote the words

Rascal:

A fine outstanding job with the translation! I am pleased to see that you are making such an effort to learn the language of the new master race. :wink:

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“t.ukyo”]
Daniel Goldhagen wants to feed his family like anyone else. [/quote]

I think most of his family died in the German death camps.[/quote]

Which of course puts him in a unique position to do good science on Germany, right? After all, who can cast a better judgement on a criminal than the victim of that crime?

[quote=“fred smith”] That reminds me of the old joke running around Germany the last time I visited. “What’s the difference between the Jews and the Turks?” The former have already “gotten what they deserve.”

[/quote]

Where was that joke running around? You make me wonder what people you hang out with in Germany. Don’t go to places like “Klub 88” or “18 bar” and take what you hear there as mainstream German opinions.

But I do have to agree with you on one thing: that whole recycling fad in Germany is really annoying.

[quote=“t.ukyo”][quote=“fred smith”] That reminds me of the old joke running around Germany the last time I visited. “What’s the difference between the Jews and the Turks?” The former have already “gotten what they deserve.”

[/quote]

Where was that joke running around? You make me wonder what people you hang out with in Germany. Don’t go to places like “Klub 88” or “18 bar” and take what you hear there as mainstream German opinions.

But I do have to agree with you on one thing: that whole recycling fad in Germany is really annoying.[/quote]

I only drink with Neo-Nazis, when I have a real bad day and think, seeing them makes me better somehow. Like drinking all of their beer in a Schrebergarten-Colony, signing the FAP membership form with “Schweinchen-Dick” and finally watching one of my right-wing friends vomiting on their garden dwarfs. Sigh, they are entertaining, but their jokes are really not too good.

Garden dwarves? haha

It reminds me of the fad sweeping France where garden gnomes are kidnapped and taken on voyages around the world with the photos sent back to the owners. You know their garden gones blindfolded with ransome messages mailed to them from the Pyramids, the Taj Mahal, Bora Bora (whoops!)

[quote=“fred smith”]

garden gones blindfolded with ransome messages [/quote]

What’s a ‘gone’? Also, no ‘e’ on ransom unless you are reading ‘Swallows and Amazons’ in which case Ransome is preceded by ‘Arthur’.

Just trying to keep you accurate Frederique so that you may continue to inform and enlighten all those that stumble in here.

BroonArthur

And it is with deepest appreciation that I receive your corrections and edits in the spirit in which they were offered. I fully intend to extend the same courtesy and “concern” to you in the future. haha Got any garden gNomes that want to go on holiday soon? Perhaps you should place a few around for that very purpose.

All the best,

Fred

[quote=“fred smith”]And it is with deepest appreciation that I receive your corrections and edits in the spirit in which they were offered. I fully intend to extend the same courtesy and “concern” to you in the future. haha Got any garden gNomes that want to go on holiday soon? Perhaps you should place a few around for that very purpose.

All the best,

Fred[/quote]

You are most welcome.

I consider it my duty. Even if the content is silly, silliness ought to be presented correctly and in a manner that befits the intellect of those you subject to your rants.

BroonAutospellcheck

[quote=“fred smith”]Garden dwarves? haha

It reminds me of the fad sweeping France where garden gnomes are kidnapped and taken on voyages around the world with the photos sent back to the owners. You know their garden gones blindfolded with ransome messages mailed to them from the Pyramids, the Taj Mahal, Bora Bora (whoops!)[/quote]

This was a fad back in Australia in the 1970’s… the french sure are slow to catch on

it’s because of amelie.