[quote=“t.ukyo”]
Daniel Goldhagen wants to feed his family like anyone else. [/quote]
I think most of his family died in the German death camps.
Quick question: “sidle their past”? What does “sidle” mean in this context?
Sidle here means a sort of sidewise walk to avoid facing something head on directly.
Most Germans admit that their “country” committed all these terrible acts in World War II but it was the “nazis” who did it not your “average” German. That is why with the Germans you have always the mention of Nazis. When it comes to Japan does anyone say the “militarists” or do they just say the Japanese?
That is how the protagonists mother in Crab Walk can easily go from being a Nazi to a Communist while denying any and all responsibility for anything that occurred. She just does not admit to it or it is someone else’s fault. What, however, she cannot countenance is democracy. She has a perfect ease going from Naziism to communism and sees no inconsistencies with doing so (perhaps she really is the smart one?) but she does not like democracy. She wants her dogmatism and her intolerant isms too.
Again, I do not think that the Jews are in trouble in Germany now but I do think that the Americans are the new race to be hated (at least we have drawn attention away from the Turks). That reminds me of the old joke running around Germany the last time I visited. “What’s the difference between the Jews and the Turks?” The former have already “gotten what they deserve.”
Now, this is not to say that most Germans are racist. Most are emphatically not, but they do not see that their screaming intolerance of Bush, American foreign policy, “polluters,” etc. is the same kind of intolerance that made it possible for them to send the Jews and other undesirables to concentration camps in the past. Today, many Germans are quite ready to murder to ensure that pollution is stopped.
Try not recycling in Germany or tell someone you do not believe in global warming and see how much time you are given before you are sent off to a camp. Seriously!
Ah, FS returns from Bora Bora where he has been reading to the mosquitoes from his many collections 
.
The Germans have done the sensible thing by crab walking 
. After all you can’t blame all the Germans for all the acts of the Nazi’s. Hitler was Austrian, why don’t you get them to share some of the blame.
We don’t hear you harping on about all the broken treaties that the Native Americans suffered from. Custer had it coming too and got his 
.
Why doesn’t America just stand up and invade Iran and become a true world conquerer like the romans and the Egyptions 
. Bring your democracy and freedoms along with you.
And pray tell, why did the USA negotitate with the Serb Milosovich instead of just going on in there earlier. It’s also true that the other muslims brothers didnt give a shit either. All this talk of a muslim brotherhood is just that. The Arab’s didnt give a hoot about the muslims in eastern europe getting slaughtered.
I think the Americans are just at good as crab walking as the rest of the world.
Bora Bora was very nice and entirely sans mosquitoes. I guess it depends on where you stay and how much you can afford to spend. Speaking of spend, I spent my entire vacation with an extended French family from near Marseilles. We had a wonderful time.
So it is all Austria’s fault? That reminds me of the Austrian joke:
Why are Austrians the world’s best pr professionals? We have everyone convinced that Hitler is German and Beethoven is Austrian.
Actually we do hear a lot about the US and the treaties with the Indians but the Indians were also killing the Indians and they were also killing Americans etc. etc. When did the US govt ever decide to murder 6 million people? hmmm? And how many people did the Jews kill? the Gypsies? the homosexuals? the retarded? those with TB? Those with mental or physical handicaps? the Poles?
What does this have to do with anything and given that the US has in fact brought democratic elections to four countries in the past year, which is a damned sight better than anything that occurred in the past 60 years, I would say give us some time and see what we can do. Who exactly has the US conquered? South Korea? Japan? Germany? Italy? UK? France? Would this similar involvement in Iraq then be a bad thing? Iran?
That is the idea.
What? You think that the US should have invaded Yugoslavia earlier? so then you are saying that your beef with Bush is that we should have invaded Iraq earlier and why are we sitting around waiting when we should be taking out North Korea, Iran and France? Hell, let’s finish off Cuba while we are at it?
Also remember that the civil war in Yugoslavia was 90 percent Slobodan Milosevic’s fault and his greater Serbian nationalists. Then, if you want to blame foreign countries start with Germany which forced recognition of an independent Croatia and Slovenia down the throats of the other 14 EU members who were totally opposed prior to this. Then why not ask why Europe and the UN sat on their collective asses for three years and then be grateful that the US finally stood up and said this is enough and did something about it.
They usually do not. Witness the great Muslim concern and outpouring of donations after the tsunami which disproportionately hit Muslims.
You certainly are rambling over a number of points but here I am in agreement with you. Is that possible?
Never said Americans did not face up to facts about their history but the point of this thread is Germany and I still stand by my remarks and completely concur with Grass that there is a large group in Germany who still waxes dogmatically intolerant ala the Nazis before them. The interesting point is that this intolerance is never seen as unacceptable. No one in Germany is a Nazi anymore does not mean that ergo all are now tolerant. No. Look at the militant hatred and inflexible dogmatic rejection of the US and its positions, of Israel and its positions, of anyone who does not want to turn Germany into a medieval village and thus remove all environmental pollution, etc. and you will see which group Grass is referring to and which group that I am referring to.
By the way, why is it that Germany which now wants to sell weapons to China and which may get its way very soon is not being a unilateral cowboy going against the wishes of the world? Why not the same for France? Except for these two countries, most of the world does not want to see any weapons being sold to China but this is okay why? Please help me out here.
[quote=“fred smith”]Today, many Germans are quite ready to murder to ensure that pollution is stopped.
Try not recycling in Germany or tell someone you do not believe in global warming and see how much time you are given before you are sent off to a camp. Seriously![/quote]
Fred, you should have your own TV talk show, seriously!
Not recycling: I have friends in Germany who have been throwing everything in their normal household waste garabge can for years because they don’t think recycling makes any sense. They are still alive and well.
Global warming: Check out what German scientist Hans von Storch and German sociologist Nico Stehr have to say about this:
- in an essay in Europe’s leading newsmagazine Der Spiegel
- in Science magazine, where they debunked the “hockeystick cureve” subscription required. They are still alive and well, too (now you’re probably going to tell me that this is because they are not completely denying a human influence on the climate)
Stupid jokes about jews: there are morons in every society, if you choose to spend your time with them, well, that’s none of my business.
Overall, your comments are way over the top. Furthermore, you may be confusing the very German tendency to tell others (i.e. family members, neighbours, strangers on the street) “how things are to be done” (Oberlehrertum) with an obviously non-existant willingness to enforce their views with lethal power.
Did I say ALL Germans? No. I said some Germans are just as militantly environmental or militantly pacificist (that one always cracks me up) as the most dogmatic Nazi. This is the point. This desperate effort to show how this cannot be the case or how my point is invalid is most interesting. I strongly encourage you to read Gunther Grass’s Crab Walk. It was his point after all not mine. I merely agreed with it.
Again, I still believe that there is an element of dogmatic intolerance that is present to a certain degree in Germany (and other countries) that is ironic. Saying there are no Nazis is not the point. Rooting out the true intolerance is and I do not think that is always been done successfully. I would say today Jews have very little to fear in Germany which bends over backwards to accommodate them, BUT I have often heard mindlessly furious barrages against the US from many citizens of many countries but none quite so vitriolic, none so self-assuredly self-righteous as I have heard come out of Germany. THAT is what concerns me. Gunther Grass can go on all he wants about the domestic ramifications but when the militant left, the militant pacifists, the militant environmentalists, the militant UN supporters, the militant anti-Americans get going, THAT does concern me. We have seen where Germany has gone before with its determined assurance that it is right.
I find it highly ironic that many view Bush’s “With Us or Against Us” speech with such paranoia, derision and skepticism. He was talking specifically about terrorism. He did not say that nations had to support the US. He said that nations were either fighting terrorism or they were supporting it and that they could not do both. Surely that is quite understandable?
What about a Germany that has a foreign minister who may have killed someone fighting for his cause back in the 1960s? (Gunther’s point again) What if this type of person takes it into his head that America is the true danger and evil in the world which I believe to some extent that he has even though he mouths pleasantries and assures that this not the case. Is it important that a dogmatically militant environmentalist and “pacificist” such as this would turn an important nation like Germany’s foreign policy against the US? Yes.
So here you have Germany pushing to sell weapons to China (against the wishes of almost every other nation in the world except France) and one that directly threatens important allies like the US and Japan and South Korea. You have a Germany which sold Saddam most of his nuclear, chemical and missile arsenal, you have a Germany that is the largest source of loans to North Korea, Libya, Syria and second for Iran. I believe that it is also one of the largest for Sudan? Does no one else see a problem with this? Does no one else see that this militant who has shanghaied control of the German foreign ministry might be a problem of the one that Gunther Grass described in his novel? No? Really?
Was Germany wrong to recognize these independent countries? The UN, The USA and the the rest of the world have followed suit.
No prizes for coming second upset the American Psyche?
No Satellite TV:
The Germans forced this down the throat of the EU back in 1991 or 1992 against the wishes of all 14 other EU members. I am assuming that you have not read my posts on the other thread. Germany was warned that this might precipitate a civil war which lo and behold it certainly did. Now, I still blame the greater Serb nationalists most for this BUT the simple fact remains. Germany unilaterally pushed something through the EU that had profound reprecussions on the situation in Yugloslavia. Its past history during the Nazi era certainly did not help quiet things down. (It had been a big supporter of the Croat facists who committed many atrocities against the Serbs). Yet, when the civil war started, where was Germany then? What troops did it send? How did it try to stop the situation? It did nothing while France and the UK tried to stop this for three years before calling in the US which put an end to the bloodshed in cooperation with its allies. But again, where was Germany? Sitting it out while telling us that its constitution forebade it to send troops to stop the conflict or conduct peacekeeping operations. That is my point.
[quote=“fred smith”][What? You think that the US should have invaded Yugoslavia earlier?
There is a large group in Germany who still waxes dogmatically intolerant…
By the way, why is it that Germany which now wants to sell weapons to China and which may get its way very soon is not being a unilateral cowboy going against the wishes of the world?
Please help me out here.[/quote]
Of course the US should have gone in earlier from the first broken treaty.
There are many groups in many countries who are dogmatic, including the US.
The US goes against the wishes of the rest of the world quite often. Do you hold a patent on going it alone single handed?
I hope this has helped lol.
OOps FS, we cannot tell these jokes openly on a forum. What we do in our living rooms is another matter.
Many people assume I’m Jewish rather than German because of my name. ( German ancestry at least… rocket man ).
My given nicknames at school were Juden Slayer or just plain Kraut. But then again in the land of Oz although many nicknames were not so nice they were used as a term of affection.
Getting back to German, lets go back for a trip there together and find all these crab walkers you so love. I’ll take you to the town where my family come from and show you our Steinmetz skills.
Yes, the US acts in its own interests but it is vilified for doing so. When Germany does so, nothing is every mentioned. When France does so it is feted for “punching above its weight.” Try putting that into a google search and see how often it comes up and how often it is viewed as a positive, admirable quality. How many of you knew that Germany was the most important nation in arming Saddam (50%)? I guarantee you that your average Chomskyite believes that the US armed and supported Saddam. A total fabrication and a misguided view of reality that takes one’s breath away.
What treaty are you referring to? The treaty was an EU treaty ramrodded through by Germany. How does this involve the US?
I am not sure what your points are and you have me thoroughly confused. If this was your intent, kudos to you since you have accomplished your objective admirably.
Again, Grass has made some interesting points. Germany will forever be subject to more consideration because of its past actions (intolerance, dogmatism, self-righteous moralism) than most “normal” nations, but then so will Japan for its previously militant nationalism. I do not think that it is a coincidence that many Asian nations continue to show concern over how Japan paints its history in its textbooks or how and when its leaders visit nationalistic and militaristic shrines. I see therefore no reason why other nations cannot continue to observe and remark upon the German tendency to moralistic dogmatic idealism since this has been responsible for so many deaths and so much destruction in the past. It is like watching for cancer in patients that have gone into remission. Is it always fair? No, but then I don’t think that the victims of Germany’s past atrocities are really concerned about how Germans perceive whether they are being treated fairly or not, nor do Germans have the moral right to resent this attention. That I believe is Gunther Grass’s point and I will not belabor it. Read the book and then come back and talk about it intelligently but don’t just try to railroad this into being a P.C. issue where it is somehow wrong to bring up Germany’s past evils.
Everyone knows a good German.
So the Americans as invaders didn’t deserve to killed then? So nice of them to slaughter and rape the locals in the name of freedom and democracy.
The Indians should have left the new settlers to starve to death. Perhaps thanks giving might have had a whole new meaning.
I’m sure that had there been 6 million Indians standing in the way of the great leap west that they would have been killed in the great bounty hunting schemes that were common at the time.
But back to our German buddies, why is it that you get so upset that they went ahead and did the correct things without the express permission of the good ol’ USA?
Cannot you see that the Germans were right to have excercised the Nazi demons from their past and have gotten on with their peaceful lives. They were correct to recognize Croatia as an independent state.
You can’t hold them responsible for not letting their troops join yours. Your Marshall plan took care of the constitution so you only have yourselves to blame. Anyways, as you have so many troops already stationed in Europe who are more than willing to go and kill for the Marine Corps then a few skirmishes now and then keeps them battle trained.
Bomber Harris was a war criminal and should also have been put on trial at Nuremberg, but being on the winning side kept him from a bit of neck stretching.
Sat TV -
Outside of your information regarding TV options, I haven’t really paid much atention to your posts.
Seeing this one, I am of the opinion that you may be more comfortable in Paraguay or Uruguay amongst those who would seem to be more of your mind-set.
So, do you think the US should have invaded Iraq years ago after Iraq violated the cease fire treaty that it agreed to with the UN Security Council and or after Iraq violated any of the 17 UNSC resolutions in the 12 years that Iraq was in violation of said cease fire treaty?
I take it that you believe that Bush and the US and the UN should have invaded Iraq much sooner than when the invasion actually occurred… am I correct?
North Korea has violated the July 27, 1953 Korean Armistice Agreement it signed with the United Nations command in at least ninety-five major unprovoked incidents spanning fifty years to the present, including the seizure of the U.S. Navy vessel the U.S.S. Pueblo in international waters in 1968. An abbreviated listing:
02/1958 – North Korean agents hijacked a South Korean airliner to Pyongyang that had been en route from Pusan to Seoul; 1 American pilot, 1 American passenger, 2 West German passengers, and 24 other passengers were released in early March, but 8 other passengers remained in the North.
04/1965 – Two North Korean MiG jet fighters “attacked and damaged” a U.S. RB-47 reconnaissance plane over the Sea of Japan, about 50 miles east of the nearest North Korean coast.
01/1968 – A 31-member commando team, disguised as South Korean soldiers and civilians, infiltrated within striking distance of President Park Chung Hee’s office/residence complex (The Blue House) before they were intercepted by South Korean police; 29 commandos were killed and one committed suicide; one who was captured revealed that their mission was to kill President Park and other senior government officials. Two South Korean policemen and five civilians were killed by North Korean infiltrators.
01/1968 – Two days after the commando attempt on President Park, North Korea seized the U.S. intelligence ship Pueblo with a crew of 83 officers and men off Wonsan in international waters outside the 12-mile limit claimed by North Korea; the crew was finally released in December 1968, but not the vessel.
10/1968 – One hundred and thirty sea-borne commandos infiltrated the Ulchin and Samchok areas on the eastern coast of South Korea; 110 were killed, 7 were captured, and 13 fled.
Shouldn’t this thread be titled “German Tendency To Sidle Past Their Past”?
BroonAside
[quote=“spook”]North Korea has violated the July 27, 1953 Korean Armistice Agreement it signed with the United Nations command in at least ninety-five major unprovoked incidents spanning fifty years to the present, including the seizure of the U.S. Navy vessel the U.S.S. Pueblo in international waters in 1968. An abbreviated listing:
02/1958 – North Korean agents hijacked a South Korean airliner to Pyongyang that had been en route from Pusan to Seoul; 1 American pilot, 1 American passenger, 2 West German passengers, and 24 other passengers were released in early March, but 8 other passengers remained in the North.
04/1965 – Two North Korean MiG jet fighters “attacked and damaged” a U.S. RB-47 reconnaissance plane over the Sea of Japan, about 50 miles east of the nearest North Korean coast.
01/1968 – A 31-member commando team, disguised as South Korean soldiers and civilians, infiltrated within striking distance of President Park Chung Hee’s office/residence complex (The Blue House) before they were intercepted by South Korean police; 29 commandos were killed and one committed suicide; one who was captured revealed that their mission was to kill President Park and other senior government officials. Two South Korean policemen and five civilians were killed by North Korean infiltrators.
01/1968 – Two days after the commando attempt on President Park, North Korea seized the U.S. intelligence ship Pueblo with a crew of 83 officers and men off Wonsan in international waters outside the 12-mile limit claimed by North Korea; the crew was finally released in December 1968, but not the vessel.
10/1968 – One hundred and thirty sea-borne commandos infiltrated the Ulchin and Samchok areas on the eastern coast of South Korea; 110 were killed, 7 were captured, and 13 fled.[/quote]
1950 to 1990: North Korea was backed by a communist nuclear power and was included in that country’s nuclear umbrella.
196- to present: North Korea has had enough rocket and artillery delivered chemical and biological weapons within range of Seoul to kill every man, woman and child in that city within the first 15 minutes of war breaking out.
Are you suggesting that the US engage in a war that has an absolute minimum price of sacrificing Seoul’s 10 million? I think you’ll be hard pressed to prove that US action in former Yugoslavia or in Iraq has caused the deaths of 10 million people.
So, do you think the US should have invaded Iraq years ago after Iraq violated the cease fire treaty that it agreed to with the UN Security Council and or after Iraq violated any of the 17 UNSC resolutions in the 12 years that Iraq was in violation of said cease fire treaty?
I take it that you believe that Bush and the US and the UN should have invaded Iraq much sooner than when the invasion actually occurred… am I correct?[/quote]
They should have done the job properly the first time in 1991.
