Germans see U.S. behind Sept 11 attacks on itself

So Guatemala and Nicaragua are conclusions, not facts? Nice way to put it, fred.

But you insist that the Germans, even those who did not take up any weapon or kill Jews and just ‘elected’ Hitler (your argument, not mine) are guilty.
And I didn’t say the US is responsible for all the deaths, that is an argument you made up.

That is the third time you use this argument which does nothing but free any supporters of terrorist organisations from doing wrong, the same people you claim to hunt and fight. And wasn’t it exactly that argument you used to invade Iraq (shifting the focus to it since you couldn’t prove your claim of WMD)?
Strange way or arguing and a sign of applying double standards. No? Yes? Maybe?

And you argues like a 10 year old: “I did something wrong but he did, too, or worst - so I am better. Leave me alone, you can’t punish or hold me responsible therefore” …

Kenny:

Thanks much for the effort to track these down. The first two seem a bit dodgy to me. First, the information is always while no connection was discovered, it is possible and then the lawsuit aspect of course means $$$ so I am not impressed or swayed here.

Second, this is not my main point. Agent Orange possible but I had not heard that was the case for DDT.

Third, how many birth defects have there been and how many deaths are attributed to American actions in Vietnam. I do not want total civilian deaths since many of these were caused by Viet Cong actions. I mean Mai Lai atrocity stuff or deliberate bombing of villages (civilian targets) use of Agent Orange which lead to… that kind of stuff. I hear a lot of claims about the evil US actions in Vietnam and especially Cambodia but then I am left scratching my head when the consequences of America leaving were far worse. Should not America be criticized more for leaving (deserting its ally) than getting involved in what some ridiculously term some neocolonial exercise?

That’s my main point. Anyway like I said, I am curious about this since I know little about it and would appreciate anything that you can dig up.

fred

Rascal:

I am not saying that Guatemala (Arbenez) did not happen. I think that was a mistake but given the political realities at the time I do not think the action to support the Shah was. Witness what happened when Carter decided to stay out of it. Is Iran better off now? I am referring to the list in general. I do not disagree with Nicaragua, but which particular episode are you referring to and not all of them were bad in my book.

My point is this endless litany of American evils is highly exaggerated.

What I think you need to ask yourself is why you are so interested in America’s historic evils? especially since they pale in comparison with actions by other countries. Russia? China? Germany? France? Turkey? (remember the Armenians?)

Is Germany as a nation responsible for the holocaust, you bet! Is America responsible for slavery? You bet! My point is that when there is a civil war in a country and the US gets involved, you cannot lay all the deaths from both sides at the feet of the US blaming everything under the sun on it. No? With the Shah in Iran, these forces would have acted with or without CIA help. The CIA chose the side that best represented American interests. Happens with Germany and commercial contracts even in Taiwan. Gosh not quite the same but when the large sums of money change hands then… this is an evil action too.

But I just find this to be anti-Americanism at best and deluded moral equivalence at worst. If you care about these kinds of problems you should be more concerned about the Russians in Chechnya or the French in Africa or the Chinese in Tibet where the actors do not even pretend to be interested in anything of a humanitarian nature or Saddam in Iraq. Who cares if the US is in this only for oil (Lefties point) if it means the people are better off.

So why is it that you are so anti-American? Interestingly, the more I talk to you about these subjects, the more you prove out some of Grass’s points in Crabwalk. I think there is a reason to worry about Germany’s postwar generation for the reasons he mentioned though in all fairness this kind of dogmatic, selective moral outrage is not unique to Germany alone.

That said, I would rather engage you on a more constructive level. These back and forth arguments are negative and useless. I know what you think of the US and you know what I think of Germany. Aint nothing going to change that.

What can be done? Where should US-Germany relations go? What should Germany’s role in peacekeeping or nationbuilding missions be? How do you see Germany’s relations with France? Eastern Europe? the EU? the Middle East and where would you personally like to see these relations go? Please I would really like to know. Do you think Germany should get a permanent seat on the UN or should the EU get one at the expense of Britain and France?

gosh…you guys sound so childish…
your whole discussion seems just to turn around one single question “who killed more people, the Americans or the Germans?”

well, fred, i don’t think one should ad infinitum blame the Germans for Hitler. He was one crazy dictator whom the people were afraid of.
and with some small exeptions, most Germans are ashamed of this part of their history and wish that it never happened.

as for the US, it was and still is not a crazy dictator who’s in power, but still “incidents” like Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, Irak happened and are still happening and more will happen…

maybe the world doesn’t want to be saved by the US, thought about that?

Mesheel:

As to the incidents you mentioned, well, I believe that Japan started the events leading to Nagasaki and Hiroshima so you cannot remove them and treat them as isolated, "So this one day, the US goes Gosh, I think I want to dominate the world like and then so who can I totally like pick on, oh I know. I think like I will go bomb the Japanese so they do not get too strong and dominate the East Pacific cuz that would be like such a bummer. Ditto for Korea. I believe that it was the North that invaded the south ditto for Vietnam. As to Afghanistan and Iraq, sure you could look at it from the perspective that you did but given the numbers involved, if it was such a pressing moral issue for you then you would not even notice the US action because you would be ever so totally more concerned with like what the Russians are doing in like Chechnya like no? That is like so way totally worse. Don’t buy Prada cuz like I hear they employ Vietnamese wage slaves.

As to the debate with Rascal, I merely like to point out repeatedly that his ridiculous charges of American “evil” are as relevant to today’s discussions as repeatedly bringing up Hitler (but as a side note, I don’t think that he has gotten this through his head yet).

So on the more positive side of things Rascal: What do you think Germany’s role in the world should be and where should it be going? Any comments?

Is that because you are an American or is there any objectivity in your statement (feel free to prove that)?

See fred, I have answered that already (because you asked it before), so look it up yourself, I am tired of repeating myself.

There is no ‘especially’. It’s your lame attempt to excuse, deny and make the atrocities committed by the US seem right or justified. They are not however - there are as bad as those committed by others and it’s not a question of numbers but a question of if it was done or if it was not done.
A mass murder gets a death sentence no matter if he killed 5 or 50 people, and the one who “only” killed 5 is in no way better (even he might have claimed to have been on a mission of god :wink: ). Both have committed a crime and both have to accept that as a fact and face the consequences of their actions.
Of course we are not in a position to make the US face consequences, but then again the US has committed or supported those wrong-doings - and that will just remain a fact as much as Germany was responsible for the holocaust.

Yawn, I said earlier I do not blame all the deaths on the US but your statement is an outragous attempt to free the US of any responsibility and - to use one of you terms - whitewash their actions.

Favorite way of “argumentation” by the pro-war crowd when they have no facts to back-up their case, so we just label anyone expressing concern or voicing out critics “anti-American”.

Haha, then who is bringing up Germany and the Nazis everytime we discuss current events where the US is involved to excuse or justify the actions (by the US)!?

Yawn Rascal:

What about the other points? This arguing back and forth is ridiculous.

WHAT SHOULD GERMANY DO IN YOUR OPINION?

WHAT KIND OF FOREIGN POLICY SHOULD IT HAVE?

HOW SHOULD IT GUARANTEE ITS SECURITY?

WHAT ABOUT GERMANY’S FOREIGN POLICY WITH REGARD TO WORLD TROUBLE SPOTS LIKE AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ?

WILL GERMANY’S FOREIGN POLICY CHANGE WHEN SCHROEDER GETS KICKED OUT ALONG WITH HIS GANGSTA FOREIGN MINISTER?

FREDDY

Please shout louder, I can’t hear you …

Now that I have your attention Rascal:

What about some positive solutions for a change. What should be done? What can Germany do? What should it do? Instead of always criticizing x for not being perfect what can YOU do or GERMANY do to help solve world problems?

fred, don’t you think there is a reason that I have avoided your (repeated) questions?

You don’t care what I think about the US foreign policy and the war in Iraq in particular, so why would you care about what I think about Germany’s foreign policy? Unless you want to start bashing Germany, given your pejorative remarks I have to expect this and thus don’t see the base for a constructive and fruitful discussion.
Futhermore I would just speak for myself, not for all the Germans or the German government, though I do feel honored (kind of) that I am repeatedly accused of that.

Come on Rascal:

We have been arguing about these boring things for months. Why not try a new topic to fight over? Who the hell cares if it is fruitful or constructive? But I really would hear what your views are on German foreign policy. Try me. That is not to say that I will AGREE with you but… what the hell? the other topic is like beating a dead horse.

Besides, this is one of my big complaints about people like Noam Chomsky. All complaints but when has he ever offered a constructive solution to what could be done instead?

Let’s try and I promise to play nice the first three rounds.

Go and play with yourself - I have a headache, honey … :wink: :laughing:

Well I just finished … having a cigarette.

Ah, Rascal you are no fun. Just like Blueface said. You have no sense of humor.

Did you ever see Woody Allen’s movie, “Everyone says I love you?” I ask because there is a hysterical scene where the head of the house tells their very German maid “Frieda, the pasta has no sauce!” to which she replies with great vituperation: “It’s Bavarian pasta! It doesn’t need any sauce! Italian pasta needs sauce! The Italians were weak!”

Hahahahahahaha it was quite a laff.

Well the power of positive thinking. We must really try to solve problems rather than debate the tired old ones of yesteryear. I think that I shall go read some Gunther Grass this evening. Maybe the Tin Drum? or maybe that reminiscence of East Prussia by Countess Marion von Donhoff, what was it called again: “Before the Storm?”

freddy

Maybe the Germans should talk with these people in the UK.

almuhajiroun.com/

Brilliantly said!

Hi girls! :smiley:

“Europeans”?

You mean all? And starting when?

Many of you hyphenated Americans have European blood dribbling through your vains. And no doubt many of you “Patriots” are grateful of your “European” features when you pass through the tightened check points in “the land of the free”.

What a lot of self righteous rot. Delusions of grandeur indeed.

Dunc

“Vains”…Right. :unamused:

Indeed. :unamused: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Three cups of coffee and time for a rant (be warned!)

Well it’s sad really but I guess I am not suprised. I thought it might be interesting to discuss German foreign policy from a more positive, proactive view, but the irony is that while so many on this thread have zillions of statistics and facts to bandy about in criticism of America, they cannot even point to the major tenets of their own nation’s foreign policies, nor do they have opinions about what their foreign policy should entail.

So typical ala Noam Chomsky. Nothing is perfect so everything is equal. Anyone who has done anything bad cannot stand in judgment. The US is just as bad as Congo, etc. but … but what would be a better system? Ah well, that is not for Chomsky and his ilk to decide. He is only there to point to the flaws. Yeah. This is why nothing ever comes of these “peace” protests or antiglobalization protests or environmental protests, etc.

Most of the “protesters” are there to protest as “professional” whose sole identity in life comes from being “anti.” Having grown up on a lazy diet of slack intellectual “flabbitude” in semi-elite universities (not even the best but not the votech or polytechniques either), they have focused on weak majors like English lit, history, political science (very rare to have such people majoring in science or engineering where they cannot “talk” their way out of things and where values are consistent and not “relative”)where their professors are 1960s radical throwbacks. Their sole life consists of protest to show superiority. And how dare some state university graduate work hard and pass them by in life. I went to a “private” university (USA) and I will always be “better” than the hoi polloi that works and saves hard to get ahead.

Much easier to criticize the whole system and say that one is “removed” from it and its evil goals. This is so much better than actually getting a job and participating. Because if you did not make as much money with your English lit major that might mean that you were less of a person (at least in terms of materialism which naturally you do not care about). But without a concrete set of alternative policies, why would anyone take this group seriously?

Very interesting too to see the sneering against organized religion. Unfortunately, so many despite their protestations have no fixed idea of what it is they stand for (other than protest) so we get into so much moral equivalency, but to admit the positions they hold are untenable would mean a radical shake-up of their value system which can be summed up precisely as “refusal to act” ala the French nihilists that they so revere. Ultimately, the whole group is just lazy and shiftless and thinks the world owes them something.

It reminds me of the lazy shits that used to come down to Latin America to “help” the workers (whether coffee pickers in Central America or labor unions in Brazil, etc.) as if some sophomore from some state school in California with one or two courses in “Latin America” who can barely speak a smattering of Spanish or Portuguese is somehow entitled to “help” is beyond ludicrous. Talk about a smug sense of superior entitlement.

That said, they were more than happy to “talk, talk, talk” in cafes rather than work work work like the peasants who had to support families, etc. Like this ridiculous Che Guevera who is also so admired. He was a lazy, upper middle class, spoiled brat who went to Bolivia to sleep with the women and get drunk. Think of Jack Kerouac and the early members of the Beat Generation and you get the picture. Narcissistim carried to the nth degree. Hardly an inspiration to the peasants to revolt. Posturing posing little ponce that he was. Meanwhile, while discussing the “important things in life,” the irony of their ultracompetitive jostling over who had more stamps in their passports was lost on them. These stamps were very important in proving their superiority over the middle classes back home, who not having been to Nicaragua for two weeks like they had did not “understand” the situation.

After that statement I had to stop reading and go

Anyhow, I am going to Finland next week and will ask a few Fins for their opinion on issues like the war and foreign politics.
Since they are also European and democratic they should be a good and impartial candidate for discussion.

So fred and all, start to do your homework - you have two weeks time to get prepared …

Rascal:

Off to Finland huh? Have fun. Oh the “I” was not me in that post. I was quoting others in a hypothetical way. You know speaking in their “voice.” haha