I can’t believe what I’m seeing on the tv. Don’t know how many people have senselessly died yet, but I know it’s not going to be good. Words of support to all Americans here from a Canadian: God Bless you all. I wish there were some way my country could share your pain - it’s not fair that any one country should have to shoulder such a heavy burden. I feel sick…
Absolutely horrible. International terrorism sux. Tho you gotta admit that this blatant act has long been expected by US hawks. Gotta be some fallout from the US strike against Iraq and the Palestine issue. Cripes! Even Bruce Willis and George Clooney did a couple of movies that covered this threat. I cant believe the whole top quarter of the WTC Building actually fell over. Sigh. What a mess. What a tragedy…
Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;
If the Muslims want a “jihad” or holy war, then I think the time has come to pick up the gauntlet.
I have several Muslim students and 6 students who are refugees from Afghanistan. Their cousin- an 18 year old girl- was kidnapped by Taliban soldiers. The day of the crashes I was teaching and I heard some people in the hall saying “evacuation” and such and such school had been closed for the day. I thought maybe there had been an outbreak of measles or something. The second grade teacher said not to talk out loud about it because we might upset the children and she took we to the kindergarten classroom where everyone was gathered around a TV. I heard about the hijacking 2 minutes before I saw the crashes and the bulidings exploding. Then I had to go back to teaching. We couldn’t tell the children everything, we just said that there had been a terrible accident- planes crashes. But I was worried about retaliation against my Afghani students so I just told them that for that evening they should not go to the park of anything, they should stay in the house and watch the TV. Nothing has happened to my Muslim students so far. My brother in law who lives in Queens and drives a city bus in Manhattan was ok, but he said that he saw people beating up Arabs, or people who they thought looked like Arabs. I don’t know if he was exaggerating of not- I haven’t seen anything like that on the news. Today I’ saw lots of American flags and flags flying at half mast. I haven’t watched that much news, but in what I have seen there has been no mention of why Americans are hated by many in the Middle East. The politicians are just saying that these people hate our way of life. Many people are waiting for something else to happen. It still seems unreal to me. Just like a movie and nothing more. I don’t know if I’m numb or desensitized.
It’s not merely a hatred of our way of life, but Islamic radicals feel that the USA is the greatest obstacle to the “purification” of the world. Osama Bin Laden has called upon all Muslims to kill Americans. I believe it was 1995 that he made the official declaration of war on America. Don’t take it personally, but these radicals hate all non-Muslims. These are some excerpts from the Koran that incite violence against unbelievers:
“Prophet, make war on unbelievers and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them.” Sura 9:73
“Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away… strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy… rouse the faithful to arms! If they (the non-Muslims) incline to peace (accept Islam) make peace with them.”
Sura 8:59
“Fight and slay the pagans (infidels) wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.” Koran, Sura 9:5
That’s pretty intense. Basically, it is believed by these radicals that they are called by GOD to destroy Americans. In fact, Bin Laden even wants to overthrow many existing Muslim governments because he believes they are corrupt.
Many non-radical Muslims claim that they do not share this hatred of America, and it is only the radical factions that support violence against the U.S.A… I don’t question this claim, but I do wonder about how the above passages in the Koran are construed differently by non-radicals. If you have any answers, please feel free to post. It would be good, in this time of difficulty, for Americans to have a full understanding of non-radical Muslims’ beliefs in order to prevent “witch hunts” on the scale of the McCarthy era.
I do hope that we target our anger at the RIGHT people, and not the wrong people. We need to destroy our enemy without BECOMING them.
Ya thats right!
Gotta get them muslims! Like the 120 muslims in Indonesia and the 30+ muslims in malaysia, and and the tens of millions of muslims in Arabia and the millions and millions of muslims in africa and the middle east and the millions in afganistan and the millions in pakaistan. And those british and canadian muslims too. Even those American muslims, like that Timothy McVeigh guy. A muslim if there ever was one.
But hell, that’s a hell of a lot of muslims, way more than us Americans. Man that’s a lot of enemies. But that’s okay. Were right! We have God on our side! And we’re the strongest! And we got the bomb man! We got the bomb!
Rambo. Breathe. In. And out. In. And out.
That’s not Rambo, man. Rambo was a man of few words, like: “I got a job to do.”
But, jeez, V., I can’t believe people are beating up people who look like Arabs. That just goes to show - one stupid thing leads to another stupid thing.
There’s a lot of stupid people in America, and a lot of them have short fuses and no manners.
But I still think it was Canadian terrorists who did it.
This is just such a horrible thing. So many lives snuffed out. So many heroes. I can’t stop crying. I lived in NYC 9 years ago, and now I’ll never be able to return to it the way it was. And now I hear about the backlash against our Arab neighbors and friends. Please everybody, don’t succumb to blind rage. Anger is good, but it must be directed against those who committed this atrocity, not against people whose only crime is to look different, or go to a different church. If we go around beating up Arabs, we become like them. None of us want that.
quote[quote]If we go around beating up Arabs, we become like them. None of us want that. [/quote] I hope when you're saying "them" you mean terrorists and not Arabs in general...quote[quote]Many non-radical Muslims claim that they do not share this hatred of America, and it is only the radical factions that support violence against the U.S.A.. I don't question this claim, but I do wonder about how the above passages in the Koran are construed differently by non-radicals. [/quote] I think the Old Testament has equally violent language. I'm not sure that any useful conclusions can be made.quote[quote]But I still think it was Canadian terrorists who did it.[/quote] The Canadians attempted to run their canoes into a few gov't buidings a while back, but nobody noticed. Now they infiltrate us with news anchors and comedians. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
quote[quote] I think the Old Testament has equally violent language. I'm not sure that any useful conclusions can be made. [/quote]There are instances in the Old Testament where God orders certain people to enact violence against others. But there are certainly no generalized directives in it to kill off various races or unbelievers. The Christian view on such matters is stated in Matthew 5:44-45:
quote:
LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, BLESS those who curse you, DO GOOD to those who hate you, andPRAY for those who despitefully use you, and persecute you
THAT YOU MAY BE THE CHILDREN OF YOUR FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN
I’m not trying to discredit those of the Moslem faith. I have friends of many different faiths, and we can peacefully debate one another without sacrificing our friendships. I will gladly defend my faith when it becomes necessary. But I do simply wonder how the above mentioned passages from the Koran are interpreted differently by non-extreme Muslims. I would like to understand the Moslem beliefs more, as it interests me. If anyone has any answers, please post.
emmm. doesn’t anyone remember the Crusades? How many people were tortured and killed by Christians who believed they were doing Gods work? I, among many, believe America is reaping what it has sowed. While the killing of innocents is terrible, America is no saint in this regard. Who dropped two atomic bombs on innocent civilains? Who sponsers terrorists worldwide, if they happen to help Americas agenda? Who supply weapons and knowhow to the Afgans when they fought Russia? I believe if America hadn’t interferred so much in other countries business this would never have happened. Remember these guys hated what Americans have done to them and their people that they were willing to give up their own lives for their cause…
I must say that i agree with Hello?. America is reaping the seeds it has sowed and again, America is no saint as it has also been involved in generating thousands of “civilian casualties” in other countries. If things should be put under the spotlight here it should be America’s foreign policy (especially towards the Middle East). If the American public want to know why this is happenng to them then they should seek clarification from the american government about its “interests” in the middle east.
Concerning the finger pointing at the Muslims (mainly bin Ladin) - what if he really is innocent of this terrorist attack? i mean his face has been branded around the worlds media for the last few days saying that he is the prime suspect. As a result, we have his life story, know how many brothers and sisters he has etc. What evidence is there besides heresay? We have also heard that he has access to no communications equipment (courtesy of the Taliban) so if that is true, how can he co-ordinate and plan this. How can people who can plan and pull of a sophisticated military attack be so stupid to leave an Arabic book on how to fly a plane in a rental car. If these were such good pilots, what are they doing with such a book. This appears to be a military style of attack, the pilots were good and they had knowledge on how to “crash” a plane in a building properly, ie on an angle as opposed to flying in straight. The timing was almost perfect to the nth degree - so there was obvious sophistication involved. If so, why would they leave an instruction manual in a car?
What happened to the america legal system of innocent before being proved guilty? Currently the whole world thinks bin Laden is guilty - but in reality, what hard evidence is there to say so? We have the Americans saying one thing and the Taliban saying something else that contradicts the Americans. How do WE know who is telling the truth?
I’m not sticking up for anyone but I am saying is that don’t blindly believe everything you have read in the media. The American government has been known to lie before, it is known that the Taliban is a harsh ruling party and it is known that they have confiscated all modern equipment in Afghanistan so there is a possibility that bin Laden may not have access to commuications equipment - from that, it is possible he could be innocent.
Concerning the American government - lets face it, not many countries really do like the American government. For Americans this may be hard to believe, but from the outside world (and I don’t mean no disrespect here - I’m just simply stating from an international level and not an American level)the American government has been involved with so many conflicts and has ruined many smaller cultures and beliefs in the name of “freedom”. I realise I may get seriously flamed for saying this but it is true on an international level.
Anyway, some of this posting may have upset a few people and if so I apologise. I don’t want to start any wars or heated arguements, but I do want people to realise that the American government is no angel for when peace and truth is involved. Also,
people should think carefully, logically and critically about what they are reading in the media and don’t accept everything as being gospel.
The pressure to blame someone for this tragedy is high and i hope that the blame is put on the right person - not someone whose profile suits the requirements of the FBI.
I’ll finish with one final hypothetical question. How would the American government react if it was found out that an American militia organisation did this?
A sceptic.
If an American, oh, perhaps, let’s say, bombed a large, government building in, oh let’s say, Oklahoma…perhaps the American government would, oh, perhaps…hunt him down and put him in the electric chair? Perhaps his name would be Tim McVeigh?
And, oh, yes, I’m sure the media and the US Government are inventing all of this…hmmm, why would the Taliban lie for Binladin? NO reason to do that. Why would the US suspect him? Why suspect someone who only a few years ago masterminded the time-syncronized bombing of 2 US embassies in Africa?
Obviously there is something bigger than one man going on, and the authorites are becoming clearer that they have a terrorist ring they must find. International cooperation is the key because it’s not 1 country, race or person doing this. Terrorism is an international ring of thugs. Powerful, eh?
If you’d like some proof that he might be a bad guy, go to www.abcnews.com and watch the “Who is Osama bin Laden” video…informative.
quote[quote] If things should be put under the spotlight here it should be America's foreign policy (especially towards the Middle East). If the American public want to know why this is happenng to them then they should seek clarification from the american government about its "interests" in the middle east. [/quote]You have obviously missed the point completely. What is being waged against the U.S. is a holy war. It has nothing to do with our foreign policy and everything to do with our culture and way of life. The Islamic extremists wish to wipe out all in the western culture. Europe is targeted as well. If there were no United States, there are many other western countries that would be “reaping” these seeds. America is merely the biggest target for these terrorists, and the most immediate roadblock to the “liberation” of Islam.
It sounds to me like you are rejoicing in these actions that have been committed. You’re obviously not an American. It’s a shame, as I would certainly mourn with you were your innocents killed, even if America was the perpetrator. But there’s a difference in targeting civilians vs. civilian casualties as a by-product of war. You see, America doesn’t target innocent civilians to strike at the enemy. Sometimes civilians get killed in the crossfire, and mistakes are made and the wrong targets are hit. It’s terrible when this happens, but it is, nonetheless, a result of error and miscalculation.
What happened in America was cold, very calculated, and planned for years to the smallest detail. Civilians were indeed targeted, and thousands successfully killed. As Mr. Bush said, you’re either going to stand with America, or you’re going to stand with the terrorists. If you’re going to stand with the terrorists, then you’d best take cover, as America will have no tolerance for terrorist sympathizers. This is the wrong time to be furthering a political agenda against America.
As for America’s foreign policy, that which has been conducted for the past 8 years is now changed. America’s new foreign policy has become that of “non-interference”. All through his campaign, if you’ll remember, Bush rebuked Clinton for “nation-building” with the military. Bush is very heavily against this. He believes in using the military, when our help is asked for, to defend countries who’s sovereignty is being threatened by another. He is against our mingling in the affairs of others. Clinton was always famous for having no “exit strategy”. I can garuntee things will be different now.
I find it ironic that so many nations were upset that Bush was elected to office, and not Bill Clinton’s heir apparent Al Gore. Bill Clinton was always praised for the manner in which he conducted foreign policy. But now we’re seeing all kinds of fallout. It’s rather confusing, but I attribute these sentiments to nothing more than ignorance.
The truth is, those outside the US that target us don’t distinguish between one government and the next. The American way of life itself is under scrutiny. Why does America have so much wealth, while others live in poverty? Why is America the world’s biggest polluter, and yet refuses to sign the Kyoto treaty? (By the way, this is a lie. America is NOT the world’s biggest polluter. Seems that evironmental groups are capable of exaggerating, too. Check out this link to see where it’s really coming from: http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/viewrecord?8086 )
It’s a challenge. But we will prevail. Those of you blindly spouting out your anger against America, please gather your facts before furthering sentiments based on misinformation.
Before anybody says anything more on this thread they would do well to read the following:
Economist.com
Interesting “editorial”. Unfortunately, it’s merely a collection of opinions. I looked for supporting evidence, facts or statistics within the article to substantiate these opinions, but failed to find any. It’s more rhetorical nonsense than anything else.
No doubt America’s foreign policy has stirred feelings of resentment, even hatred. That is obvious, and I have never questioned that fact. I have also conceded that the American government has made many foreign policy mistakes in the past. I, myself, have been an outspoken critic of American foreign policy throughout the last decade. But the point I am trying to make is that were America to conduct itself in an “isolationist” manner, it would not necessarily have prevented these attacks. Americans thought isolationism would keep them safe, happy and peaceful during world War II. It seems that theory didn’t last very long.
For an interesting perspective on the actual sentiments of the Islamic extremists, check out this link:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fall/murad1.html
This is a transcript of the interrogation of Abdul Hakim Murad. He was plotting to bomb airplanes in conjunction with Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, who masterminded the WTC bombing of 1993. In it, he states why he wants to kill Americans. He also states that he has business in other countries, as well. The transcript is a window in to the minds of these terrorists. Those governments that would dare harbor such evil people don’t deserve any sympathy from us. They would be much better off cutting any ties with them.
No doubt many Arabs are afraid of being categorized along with these terrorists. Luckily, the American government is going to show restraint. America will only target the Taliban if the Taliban refuses to give up Osama Bin Laden and other terrorists taking refuge in Afghanistan. They will be given a choice.
As I mentioned above, American policy has already changed. I find it ironic that the same groups that are angered so much over the U.S. involvement in the affairs of their countries are now angry that the U.S. government has since pulled out of various talks between these countries.
The article also talks about Yasser Arafat, and how he has been “villanized”. The only person that has villanized Yasser Arafat is Yasser Arafat. Check out these links below:
http://www.worldpress.org/0801cover1.htm
http://www.deprizearafat.com/text.htm
There is far too much sympathy for terrorism, it seems, on these boards. Whatever the circumstances, there is no excuse for terrorism. It must be battled. It can be battled. It WILL be ended!
I also notice that someone has voted my rating down. It’s too bad that some are willing to tear another person down simply because they have a fundamental difference of opinion. Is this not an open forum? Shame on you!
I never pay attention to the member ratings- I don’t have a star to my own name- I just pay attention to what people write. When you say that there is sympathy for terrorism on these boards, your credibility goes way, way down. In any case, I will check out some of the links you posted.
Originally, I only passed on this email note to friends on my private email list. However, as this thread has grown, I feel compelled to post here for others to read. Dave Winer writes regularly and I received this note several days ago:
DaveNet essay, “Mir Tamim Ansary on Afghanistan”, released on 9/14/2001; 4:28:07 PM Pacific.
***Rick Smolan
Rick Smolan is an old friend from the 80s. He sent me an email this afternoon. “Dave, the following was sent to me by a friend of Mir Tamim Ansary [1]. Tamim is an Afghani-American writer. He is one of the most brilliant people I know. Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in. I know your email reaches a lot of people and I think the following is really worth forwarding.”
***Mir Tamim Ansary on Afghanistan
I’ve been hearing a lot of talk about “bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.” Ronn Owens [2], on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but “we’re at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?” Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we “have the belly to do what must be done.”
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I’ve lived here for 35 years I’ve never lost track of what’s going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I’m standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They’re not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think “the people of Afghanistan” think “the Jews in the concentration camps.” It’s not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don’t the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they’re starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan , a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that’s been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They’re already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today’s Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They’d slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don’t move too fast, they don’t even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn’t really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban–by raping once again the people they’ve been raping all this time
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of “having the belly to do what needs to be done” they’re thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let’s pull our heads out of the sand. What’s actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden’s hideout. It’s much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we’d have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I’m going. We’re flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
And guess what: that’s Bin Laden’s program. That’s exactly what he wants. That’s why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It’s all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he’s got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that’s a billion people with nothing left to lose, that’s even better from Bin Laden’s point of view. He’s probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
Mir Tamim Ansary
[1] http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=Mir+Tamim+Ansary&userid=19JCN7T4LY
[2] http://www.ronn.com/
© Copyright 1994-2001, Dave Winer. http://davenet.userland.com/.
“There’s no time like now.”