curb, let’s get beyond the reap thing. Let’s see what we agree on: 1)death to the people behind the attack,2)accomplish #1 with minimum loss of American and innocent Afghani lives,3)criticizing your country because you want it to be better, to live up to its ideals, is patriotic 4)the government often does things that its people don’t know about- if they do know about it, they might often be against it, but feel powerless to stop it. Or people might think they are not informed enough to make a judgement. Or they might be too stressed out with their daily lives to pay attention. Or they might not be in the habit of paying attention to all that their government does.5) the average US citizen must start to pay more attention to his government or be ready to face the consequences of policies he doesn’t support. I think we basically agree on all the above 5 points. What we might not agree on is when the US should get involved in foreign affairs. Excuse me, my laogong is asking me wan xi le meiyou so I have to go rang ta bi zui.
It is easy to have a crack at the US’s foreign policy, and mistakes made in the past. And yes, the US has done some very “questionable” things, via its military, intelligence agencies. Chile, El Salvador, Cambodia… the list can go on. It is true to say, however, that in the information age, that Governments (at least democtratic ones)are more exposed to scrutiny, and attention from both their own citizens and the International community.
Compare this, however, to the hundreds of governments around the world that are somehow beyond criticism. Either because they imprison, torture and execute those of their citizenry who dare to question the absolute power of the leadership (i.e. Iraq), or because the big bad old US should stop poking its nose in world affairs (says most of the so called ‘non aligned’ movement).
They (the US) seem to be screwed whatever they do. NATO gets a bollicking for not acting sooner in Kosovo, they get blasted by the media and ‘peace’ protesters for accidentially killing civillians in one of their air strikes.
For a nation that contributes 22% to the United Nations budget, is the most influential player in the Security council, & who basically bank rolls NATO, I think they DO deserve the right to stick their noses in other people’s affairs.
And thank God they do.
Human rights improvements in China would have to have been affected by America’s pressure on them every time WTO membership was touted by China, and when favoured trading status was up for review.
Despite some of the bad things from the past (and every country in the world has something in their history to be ashamed of), the US provides a level of support and civilisation, of compassion, and of sanity in a world that seems to fragment more and more into disarray and violence. Of fanaticism, and hatred. America is not at war with Islam. It supports moderate Muslim nations - Egypt being a most glaring example.
Instead of bagging America and its mistakes, why not take a moment to reflect on how much worse the world would be if it had not been for the US. How differently would WWI & WWII have ended up?
I am an Australian. The English (and indeed many Australian) generals had already decided during the second world war to allow Japan to occupy the ‘top half’ of the country. The US intervened and said that united, they could stop the invasion in Papua New Guinea. As a result, our country was saved from direct invasion. If I were Italian, or French, or Dutch, or Greek, or from so many different countries, I could relate a similar episode of history in which the US came to our aid and helped protect the free world from tyranny - be it Fascist, Communist, whatever.
America has a congress, it can question its leaders on policy or on its actions, and if need be, dismiss or imprison them if they lie to the people. V, You say that Americans should pay more attention to their country’s foreign policy - well they can. Get involved in politics, read the papers, get online. They can lobby, and speak to journalists, and protest if they desire. There’s not many places in the world where you have these rights enshrined in law, and practically implemented by Government.
American foreign policy does have to change. The US has to do exactly what it intends to do. Draw a line in the sand, with the civilised world on one side, and terrorists and their supporters on the other. It is as simple as that.
For those that think that the US should do nothing in the interests of peace, you must know how naiive that is. No dictator or terrorist EVER understood diplomacy, and ever respected the other side’s inactivity. Someone once said:
“Those who long for peace, must be prepared for war.”
Bin Laden, and other assorted murderers and scum will find Mr. Bush not the “village idiot” that many are making him out to be. He is restrained (1 week since the attack, and no military action), learned (he has learnt from his father re. the Gulf War - build your alliances, gain intelligence before you strike), and tough (he will use whatever force is necessary). I, and I might add, most of the free world, support him and the American people. Justice can take many forms.
Finally, there are some things America should have learnt. It should think of the LONG term effects of its actions. Bin Laden was trained by Pakistani intelligence with support by the CIA for thier ‘death by a thousand cuts’ war against Russia in Afghanistan. Likewise, Saddham Hussein and General Noriega were equipped and supported by the US. The expedient gains, in these cases either in fighting Iran, protecting the Panama canal, or whatever, have had long term consequences. And America needs to roll in the more fundamentalist and miltaristic in Israel. There can be no peace in the Middle East if Israel doesn’t meet at least the most moderate of the Palestinians half way.
By doing some of these things, the US could build up strong alliences, rather than enemies in many parts of the world. It will not, however, avert more acts of terrorism, despite what changes it makes to its foreign policy. The jihad is about America’s annihialation. The US need to eliminate these groups, and remove their support. Not try to negotiate with them, or indeed, as has been the case in the past fund and support them for short term gain.
Reading over what you read quickly, I basically agree with you. On another note, I was talking with my Afghani elementary school students today. I asked them if they understood what was happening. They said yes, and that their parents and aunts and uncles were crying a lot because they still have a lot of family in Afghanistan and they were afraid for them because of the coming attack. I told them that the US would bomb army areas and that their relatives should move away from airports and places with lots of soldiers. Benazir told me that her family can’t move because the Taliban is beating everyone, in her words. I guess she means they are cracking down on people trying to flee. I told her that maybe her family could escape into the mountains once the bombings started. Or maybe they could dig trenches/fox holes. Benazir, 12 years old, said she knew what I meant since they had done that before.
Islam believes that the Bible had been corrupted by the Nasrani (Christian) as well as the Yahudi (Jew). Muhammad, though illiterate, received God’s revelation of the ultimate truth through God’s servant, the Angel Jibril (Gabriel).
TO fully understand Islam, one needs to learn the faith completely; and, it is not a good idea to simply quote several verses from the Al Qur’an (Holy Koran) to support one’s ideas. You need to understand the whole context of where that verse is taken from, and read the whole pericope. When Jesus said about giving your other cheek when someone slap your face, does that mean asking Usyamah bin Ladin to bomb other major cities in the US? When Paul the apostle said that all women should cover their head with a veil, does that apply to all? Context is indeed very important.
The fact that the three big religions came from the same root is very interesting; but not as interesting as the fact that they are fighting each other starting from thousands of years ago.
I’ve read some of the perspectives above, and each of you actually sing in the same chorus line, but we should be wiser in voicing our opinion in a way as we may hurt someone and start a new conflict. Such comment like “I feel sad to learn about the terrorist attack, and I condemn those people who master minded the attck. BUT, America actually reaped what it had sown.”
Well, I believe this kinda comment is even more cruel than the act of terror itself. How could people use such double-standard? Keep that “BUT” or “HOWEVER” or “YET” to ourself. If we want to say this particular point, say it outloud, without disguising ourselves by saying positive thing first before stabbing the knife.
I wasn’t just quoting the Koran to support my ideas. I was simply pointing out that these are the verses that the radical Musilims interpret as a call for their violence. I have, however, read up on Islam a bit more, and I am starting to gain some more understanding. Here is what I have found.
Violence against non-Muslims is only called for in the Koran if there is no peace treaty in place. But considering that America is a place of religious tolerance of all faiths, that would seem to imply that America itself is at peace with the Muslims. Because of the fact that America is at peace with the Muslims, there is no call for violence against America.
This is really not much different from the Christian faith. Christians are not called to commit violence against others on a personal basis, even if someone close to them is murdered. Revenge is best left in God’s hands. However, there is a difference in cases of “state to state” matters. Here as an interesting article on the Christian beliefs regarding the terrorist incident. Actually, Christians are rather divided on the issue of retaliation. Some would rather die than kill another, while others believe that this is a case in which the government must be the “sword of justice”, but must use careful discretion and let no more innocents die.
Link: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/138/42.0.html
I thought it was very heartening to see Bush in the Mosque standing for peace with Musilim believers. He even read quotes from the Koran advocating that Islam is peace. I thought it really showed his strength as a leader, and that he recognizes his awesome responsibility as an enforcer of religious tolerance. He even refuted the obnoxious comments made by leaders of the Christian coalition, which was quite notable as they were a very hefty campaign supporter. Bush has long been accused of trying to run the government as a “right-wing bible thumper”, but I think he’s really shown his critics a thing or two.
I definately respect your sensitivity, , in these matters, but I can assure you I stand for peace, as well. And I think it can be assured that leaders in the U.S. feel the same way. God bless!
As far as I can tell, persons who fight jihad’s don’t seem to care too much for Japanese victims of WWII. Unless you are refering to some form of poetic justice, but you did not really allude to that.
America interferes in areas where the democratically-elected President tells the CIA to do so.
Suggested action plan for you: urge American citizens to register to vote and vote for candidates who have inular and neutral foreign policy platforms.
quote:
Originally posted by : emmm. doesn't anyone remember the Crusades? How many people were tortured and killed by Christians who believed they were doing Gods work? I, among many, believe America is reaping what it has sowed. While the killing of innocents is terrible, America is no saint in this regard. Who dropped two atomic bombs on innocent civilains? Who sponsers terrorists worldwide, if they happen to help Americas agenda? Who supply weapons and knowhow to the Afgans when they fought Russia? I believe if America hadn't interferred so much in other countries business this would never have happened. Remember these guys hated what Americans have done to them and their people that they were willing to give up their own lives for their cause....
I have done some reading on this matter and find that the EU has a love/hate relationship with its more prosperous brother. Other nations each have their own bones with the United States to pick, but I think the international condmenation of terrorism and the outpouring of empathy speaks for itself. Extremeism is rarely looked upon with favor in the UN and even pseudo-nations like Taiwan.
quote:
Originally posted by : Concerning the American government - lets face it, not many countries really do like the American government. For Americans this may be hard to believe, but from the outside world (and I don't mean no disrespect here - I'm just simply stating from an international level and not an American level)the American government has been involved with so many conflicts and has ruined many smaller cultures and beliefs in the name of "freedom". I realise I may get seriously flamed for saying this but it is true on an international level. [/QB]
I appreciate your excellent homework.
quote:
Originally posted by crbkstiles: This is the pay rate for various security officers as quoted by Charlotte/Douglas International Airport:Link: http://www.ci.charlotte.nc.us/cihr/current.pdf
There’s even a current shortage of pilots in the industry, and wages are higher than ever! Check out this link:
http://www.avweb.com/articles/cashingin/
I fully agree, and I imagine 60-80% of American citizens do too.
quote:
Originally posted by crbkstiles: The burden of responsibility lies with these terrorists, and with these terrorists alone. Despite the mistakes the United States has made in it's foreign policy throughout history, this is not a factor, here. I know that many of the anti-Americans that are bringing up every aspect of our sordid past are finding it hard to believe. It's almost as if some people WANT these attacks to have been as a result of U.S. foreign policy. But the facts just don't point that way. Sorry! [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img]
I think an important point to counter many of the arguments from this forum, and indeed opinions from around the world, that the US is “rattling sabres”, warmongering, etc. is the fact that they have shown incredible restraint on two accounts.
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Military action. There are strategic resons why (i.e. building up coalition alliances as per the Gulf War), and additionally there is the expecation that they must hit the “right” people (so also intelligence gathering, and dispersal of resources). But, the President did not cave in to emotion, or public sentiment following the attack and launch immediate reprisals with the risk of hitting innocents.
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Religious Neutrality. Many of the clerics in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt and other middle-east countries are trying to turn this into a Holy war between Christianity and Islam. Bush has not taken the bait. He relaizes that this would be playing into the hands of the terrorists and actually gain support for them from many of the more moderate Muslim countries.
I think the actions of the US government are completely at odds with much of the supposedly “pacifist” criticism. If most of the world’s leaders demonstrated such level-headed and strategic behavour, we wouldn’t have most of the viloence & bloodshed that we see in the world today.
But why would Yanni want to attack the U.S.? And what’s with the beard?
The towers of BABYLON collapsed for real!Is that “CANDY COATED” enough for ya?Let see if this will pass the moderators scrutiny!Enjoy the fruits of the tree you planted AMERIKKKA.
I thought this was quite telling about the results of our great triumph against terror.
Click here
“Despite the mistakes the United States has made in it’s foreign policy throughout history, this is not a factor,”
quote crbkstiles
sorry mate but you seem to refer to the dark side of us foreign policy as mistakes, blunders, errs. things that are unintentional in their outcomes and consequences.
the dark side of us foriegn policy is consistant and are not things of the past. they continue to occur.
the people and institution that has right royally shafted others in the past is the same one that is there today
the us government is based on the same principles that lincon (sorry shocking spelling here, you know that pres with the hat and quaker beard…got it…lincoln)forced upon the states that where legally entitled to sede/cede (spelling again)from the union but weren’t allowed to.
you can’t exclude us conduct because you don’t like the results and the backlash.
“It’s almost as if some people WANT these attacks to have been as a result of U.S. foreign policy. But the facts just don’t point that way. Sorry!”
quote crbkstiles
the us has a very recent history in the middle east but it is loathed. other muslim countries don’t have the same feelings. why is a good question. i can’t believe pure evil or jealousy.
mate why else would people attack the us if not because they were a trifle mifffed with the us for something.
i know the attacks are tragic, no arguement there. but how else does a small organisation or country fight a much larger group or country, guerilla warfare, terrorism. they don’t have much going for them against the spending, manpower and media that the us has.
anyways enuf blah
cheers
hi bri
I live about 15 miles from the Pentagon, and my dad had a meeting at the Pentagon on the afternoon of 9/11 (it, of course, was cancelled). I can’t understate how terrible the incident was. Now, I’m American and I generally (though, not always) support U.S. foreign policy. I do believe we’ve made mistakes, though, even recently. And, we are guilty of killing others in the past, even inocent civilians (most likely the results of accidental bombings, shootings, etc.). Perhaps one of the greatest tragedys was during the Vietnam War, when some American soldiers entered a Vietnam village and murdered innocent Vietnamese. But, before we focus blame on the U.S., let’s take a step back and look at at the bigger picture. There’s a lot of people, organizations, and countries, who kill in order to solve their problems. They seem to believe that murder is justifiable. I’m agnostic, but I still believe that it isn’t our (human’s) place to end other lives except in extreme cases (when others are responsible for the murder of hundres, thousands, or millions–such as in the case of Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.). I don’t personally believe that our consciousness lives on, so I only believe that we’ve got once chance at life. Prematurely ending a life, ending the possibility for the contributions that person might make and the experiences they might have, and devastating families, isn’t right. I don’t care if it’s a policy of a person, group, or country, it just isn’t right. So, I don’t defend U.S. foreign policy when it directly leads to the murder of others. But, at the same time, hijacking 3 airliners, flying them into buildings, and murdering thousands of innocent victims is inexcusable under any circumstance. There are more productive, ethical ways of dealing with problems than through murder (either by the U.S. or anyone else, such as Bin Laden). I’m not saying it’s always easy, especially for a relatively small group, to challenge U.S. foreign policy–I’d imagine it’d be very difficult. But, it seems to me that no matter the difficulty, it is more ethical to take on that challenge than to murder others to gain attention. Furthermore, Bin Laden did so “in the name of Allah.” He’s attempting to argue that it is justifiable in Islam to murder. I think most intelligent, reasonable Muslims in the world would argue that Islam does not justify murder (I admit I’m not familiar with the religion’s doctrine, but I doubt it would have gained such popularity if it justified murder to get across a message).
Peter
But Pete, those attacks were staged. Haven’t you been reading the “U.S. faked the wtc bombings” thread? No wreakage at the Pentagon of a plane? Planes missing from radar? “Terrorists” not on any passenger manefest? Hmmm…
Gotta go kill more Afghans.
Well, there was one sighting, although based on a reliable source, it looked more like a model airplane with little ants in it But, really, my dad saw WITH HIS OWN EYES the plane crash into the Pentagon. He works right by the Pentagon, has an office with the window facing the building, and though Reagon National Airport is nearby, it’s hard not to notice a plane flying that low right by the Pentagon, and then the sound of a loud crash as it hits it. Then there are the numerous volunteer paramedics I used to volunteer with at the Bethesda-Chevy Chase Rescue Squads who responded to the incident. Then there is the physical evidence I saw firsthand, while driving by the Pentagon on the way to Pentagon City mall several times.
But, as I mentioned in another forumn, one may suspect that we are were in cohoots to fool the world. Indeed, I have to admit this long after, that we were, and that it was a made-for-tv movie starring Dustin Hoffman. Please don’t let this get out, but the Pres staged it all so that he could up his approval ratings .
Peter
I am ashamed at some of the “discussions” taking place. A horrendous tragedy took place and some people (you know who you are) seek to diminish the significance of this mass killing, as well as the value of lives lost. No innocent citizen deserves this fate. America’s citizens (hailing from Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Europe, the Americas…) were attacked on Sept. 11, 2001. Their lives and this tragedy will not be forgotten nor diminished. They were killed because the country they believe in and call home is willing to safe guard freedom and democracy the world over.
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I’d like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don’t they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at
home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don’t think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I’m one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada
is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!
One effect of this tragedy is definitely that there’s more patriotism in America now than before. People are raising the flag.
I just hope that the stupid Americans stop beating up random people who “look like Arabs” (which seems to have been happening in all the chaos), because Arab Americans are part of the flag that people are raising.
Here’s a poem by Kahlil Gibran, the Lebanese American poet, about America.
quote:
I believe in you, and I believe in your destiny. I believe that you are contributors to this new civilization. I believe that you have inherited from your forefathers an ancient dream, a song, a prophecy, which you can proudly lay as a gift of gratitude upon the lap of America. I believe that you can say to the Founders of this great nation, "Here I am, a youth, a young tree, whose roots were plucked from the hills of Lebanon, yet am I deeply rooted here, and I will be fruitful.-Kahlil Gibran
When John F. Kennedy said “Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country,” he was actually quoting Kahlil Gibran when he addressed the people of Syria and Lebanon half a century earlier.
Well, now you know if you didn’t know. I wish these dumb arab-bashers knew.
I also wish Bush and his dumb dad weren’t such retards. How come there wasn’t a great mourning for all the times they bombed Iraq? Because Iraq is…evil? Gimme a break! Whenever they attacked Iraq, I just thought, ‘they’re asking for it.’
Look, what happend is terrible and tragic, I’m sure we can all agree on that.
But I’m sick and tired of reading all this pro American, trash Canada crap on these forums. No Maoman, I personally think that Canadians should not wear an American entertwined with a Canadian flag. Go ahead. But don’t tell us what to do. That’s the whole gist of the tragedy. Some people trying to tell others that their way is right, and force the other people do do what they think is right. Only problem is, this works both ways.
The post above by ‘[({})]’ is one of the more intelligent things I’ve read on Oriented, along with comments by ‘v’. The rest of you boys can go back to playing Mortal Combat.