Just joining this forum in 2004 was enough to be ridiculed just for telling people I had naturalized. Or I was ridiculed because people complained foreigners could not get credit cards, car loans, mortgages etc. Yet I and other foreigners ( who had work based ARC’s or our own businesses when most did not ) got those things in the 1990’s. Was it easy no, but we got them. Anyway if people want to leave Taiwan then that’s fine by me. After all my son did and he is doing fine. However with the price of housing in Sydney he would not get a mortgage to buy what he wanted or even a small apartment. Why aren’t the Gold Card holders fleeing Taiwan to countries like the UK Australia Canada etc?
Many people just give up when told no. Recently I was at a restaurant in Taipei where the foreign business owner wanted a loan for 5M but was told no cause he was a foreigner. He has APRC and enough finances to pay the loan. When advised to complain to the FSC he was refused a loan because he was a foreigner his response was that writing a complaint was too much effort. Just easier to give up.
That’s the big problem… Most people here don’t stand their ground and find spending 5-10 minutes writing complaints to be too much for them to handle. (Despite having spent 30 minutes to an hour or longer in a line be told no…)
Then when they accept the answer and don’t complain… They are “enabling” it to happen again by contributing to the problem.
I think there are entire threads about what APRC holders are excluded from compared to citizens (disability, bus discounts, rental subsidy, certain old age benefits, …).
However digging deeper into the disability parking placard case… The guy was a British citizen who had lived here for 30+ years! Did he ever think to take the initiative to naturalize (despite being able to easily get his citizenship back as a British citizen?) Obviously not…
Another is a South African who similarly could have become Taiwanese and easily get his citizenship back…
There are benefits and negatives to being a citizen in Taiwan. One negative is the military service for example.
Perhaps Taiwan in return for offering disability support, rental subsidy, certain old age benefits etc… enact Singapores policy of conscripting foreigners with PR?
I remember you mentioned before to me that other foreigners were asking if as part of naturalising you had to undergo surgery to have your eyes slanted.
Yeah, but what does that mean for those of us who cannot simply resume their citizenship after renouncing? Bad luck, I guess
The current policy clearly favors people who can either not renounce or can resume after renouncing (and people who acquired the Taiwanese citizenship at birth, of course). I think this is as much a case of discrimination as many other issues being discussed here. So I don’t understand why some members argue against that by stating it is not…
However I am pointing out that many people just never wanted it anyway… Like the British and South African (Bet they’re regretting it now though…)
I really suggest a two pronged approach. One is to complain to your home government (that others can renounce and resume) and the other is to complain to Taiwan.
Do 2 things at once to maximise the chances of something changing.
I don’t see any American questioning why their government doesn’t let them resume their citizenship…
I couldn’t. I was cursed with that choice. My country did not allow dual citizenship at the time anyway. I could have waited for the APRC to become available. I have helped many APRC holders who cannot resume also become citizens here.
You make a choice. You understand the process and decide to accept it or not. Also nowadays you are give 12 months to renounce after getting the Naturalization certificate unlike in the past for people like me who had to renounce before you were allowed to naturalize. If you do not like the renunciation requirement then I suggest you get some citizens to petition for a change in the law. After all you as a foreigner are not able to petition the Legislature as you are not a citizen.
My point was that they can easily get get additional citizenships without renouncing their Taiwanese one. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think that’s quite hypocritical: They allow dual-citizenship, but only if one is Taiwanese first…
Yeah, so right now I’d say it’s only fair to say that Taiwan simply doesn’t want to make it too easy on purpose (not meant in terms of the process itself, but more in terms of what’s on stake) for foreigners of certain countries to naturalize by having this renunciation rule in place. That’s all I’m saying.
Well fortune smiles on some and the rest of us mere mortals take a different route. Woe is me. Taiwan is not the only country like this. Yes you don’t like the laws of the land and yes I agree would be nice if they changed it. So if you have decided not to naturalize then you have made your choice. You’re wanting dual citizenship without renouncing is a whim the Taiwan bureaucrats are not going to bestow. The law has been consistent on that for decades.
Maybe Taiwan government doesn’t give two hoots if you naturalize or not. After all you don’t have voting rights. As Chewy wrote, I navigate Taiwan as it is not as how some foreigners think it should be. Lots of things Taiwanese also dislike and want changes for. In many countries citizens have more rights than foreign immigrants.
I know it sounds harsh but I live in reality not in the dreamtime where I can take walkabouts in my mind believing in Utopia. Life wasn’t meant to be easy. I look at Fuzzy’s efforts and go damn, yes I had processing issues as well like being stateless for over 9 months. but we achieved the goals we set out. For some of us that causes hardships. We endure. Also I didn’t get citizenship here for the want of another citizenship elsewhere. For many people Taiwan is not really their home. It’s a place in limbo they live till they leave for another country again.
That is their rights as citizens of Taiwan. It also depends on the country they live in. We have local tribal friends who live in Germany and other countries. They cannot get citizenship there without renunciation. So they choose not to become German citizens or citizens of those other countries.
Exactly. And while many countries (especially those considered “immigration-friendly”) already allow acquiring citizenship in addition to their existing citizenship, Taiwan does not. I’d argue that “giving out” the citizenship can be a factor to convince people to truly feel at home at those country after some time - without having to give up their roots (as in their original citizenship - so they could always move back to their home country).
Taiwan, on the other hand, requires 100% certainty: You need to be sure you 100% want to spend the rest of your life in Taiwan because once you renounce, there’s no going back (well, at least for those who cannot resume). One might still be able to visit their home country (if they’re lucky, it might een be visa-free), but they can no longer decide to move back there.
Apparently, you were 100% sure about this when you renounced - but I think you’re probably in the minority - most people are maybe only 80% or 90% sure and then decide against renouncing (again, unless they can get back their citizenship easily).
Germany is a very good example: They’re in the process of changing their citizenship laws to finally allow dual-citizenship. Why? It’s exactly the reason that many immigrants living in Germany for years still aren’t 100% set on considering Germany their “home”, so they don’t want to give up their citizenship to become German. Germany has recognized that this is an issue and so they want to allow these people to simply become dual-citizens.
So why do you want ROC citizenship if you plan on moving back to your home country? This is what government officials here will ask themselves. If you only want citizenship here a convenience then it’s not for you they will think. But those who want citizenship because Taiwan is their home they will renounce. That is how they think.
Well recent elections just put that out of the question. The new elected officials have not passed any legislation to allow dual citizenship as they are against it. The previous government was too slow and did not pass the legislation. Oops
Yeah, exactly - one needs to be 100% sure that they are making Taiwan their new home and give up all ties to their “old” home country. Basically the same logic that Germany used to follow. But that’s not how it works in today’s world - even after moving to another country, people will still feel connected to their “home country”.
And that’s the hypocrisy I’m talking about: For their own citizens, Taiwan recognizes this and allows them to take up another citizenship (“you’ll always stay Taiwanese”) while at the same time requiring foreigners to cut all contacts with their home country.
That’s simply not how a country becomes attractive for immigration.
And maybe that’s just another example that Taiwan in fact is not “immigration-friendly” (by giving their citizens those kinds of rights which do not apply to foreigners) and probably also doesn’t want to be “immigration-friendly”.
Yes I had to get a visa to visit my country of birth. So arduous lol Yes if I wanted to get PR I would have had to apply for a PC visa. But I wanted to live in Taiwan not another country. That’s what’s citizenship is for. The choice as you and especially I rightly know, is not an easy decision to make. Yes you want to be certain you want to live here for the rest of your life. If not then APRC offers what you need. I’m in the minority you think. hmmm Stats prove otherwise… over 150,000 people have naturalized by renouncing. Yet only 23,000 APRC’s have been issued. So there’s 8 times more people chose citizenship over APRC’s.
Maybe that’s also why Taiwan is not going to change the law any time soon. I wish it would. But it’s not my call. Get your local citizen friends to petition the minister of Interior, approach some legislators.
Well, democratic processes take time everywhere in the world. And overall, I wouldn’t see Germany as a good example of an “immigration-friendly” country. Maybe even less so than Taiwan in some instances. But at least they recognized that dual-citizenship (or the lack thereof) can be a huge factor on how successfully immigrants will integrate into society.
